Surplus military equipment going to the po po again

If it's good enough for the police, it's good enough for us Patriots. (Or should be).

Actually something we agree on. I bet theres more we again on if we continue talking. I believe that the citizens should be able to arm themselves as well as the police. Nothing should prevent good citizens from having fully automatic weapons, suppressors and etc.
 
On the other side of that coin is when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So we should all be equal. If you can have it, we should have it.

You must have a good chief law enforcement officer or Sheriff, that has the right values and beliefs. If not the potential for abuse is there.
 
You must have a good chief law enforcement officer or Sheriff, that has the right values and beliefs. If not the potential for abuse is there.

Any system which relies solely upon the virtue and benevolence of those in power to prevent corruption and abuse is a system which gives too much power to those entrusted with it.
 
Any system which relies solely upon the virtue and benevolence of those in power to prevent corruption and abuse is a system which gives too much power to those entrusted with it.

I agree anytime that we rely on man we should expect to be let down at some point. No one is perfect. What would be a better system? Not baiting or trying to start anything. Honestly want to know the opinions of others. I'm not under the illusion that I have all the answers.
 
COP isn't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs in this country. I'm sick of hearing about officer safety and how rough it is out there...
 
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I think we should arm every law abiding person to the teeth and let them handle the scum affecting their communities. Evil persist when we do nothing and look away.

I think that every law abiding citizen can already arm themselves to the teeth. Having them dole out their own justice is a recipe for disaster though. This has been proven in a few Arab Lands lately.

And what about the rest of society? The ones who think maybe we've evolved past the point where we have to constantly be on guard against pirates and wolves and Jehovah's Witnesses?
 
COP isn't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs in this country. I'm sick of hearing about officer safety and how rough it is out there...
Those other 9 dangerous jobs are they dangerous because people from other companies come up and shoot them in the head?

Maybe you choose not to see a difference but you know it's there.
 
Falls right in line with what's expected from the "Law and Order" candidate. You guys should worry about this as it's not meant for you. Like all previous politicians running on the "Law and Order" platform this is only intended for Brown people.

I've been too busy to post this story myself as I was curious what the response would be here. I remember many people not being happy with the the militarizing of the popo but figured this would go over quite well.

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So the root of your problem is the politicians that make the laws the police enforce?
I don't recognize your username, so I don't know how much you've followed some of the positions I've taken on this matter. In short, your assessment is correct. The politicians who deign themselves rulers are illegitimate. Their claim of "authority" is false and fake. All of the religious trappings and rituals , such as electoral process, do not legitimatize them and does not grant them power over The People. The idea that it does is irrational. People can't bestow upon or grant to others that which they don't themselves possess. Consequently, the notion that through a ritual we can take a subset of men, who by virtue of wanting that position makes them poor choices for such a position, and elevate them to super status to rule is absolutely absurd on its face. There is no such thing as consent of the governed. Governing is the antithesis of consent. They're mutually exclusive.

Yes, I have a problem with theft via the guise of taxation taken under the threat of violence being used to hire people to use violence to force the rule of these men upon the People.
 
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Falls right in line with what's expected from the "Law and Order" candidate. You guys should worry about this as it's not meant for you. Like all previous politicians running on the "Law and Order" platform this is only intended for Brown people.

I've been too busy to post this story myself as I was curious what the response would be here. I remember many people not being happy with the the militarizing of the popo but figured this would go over quite well.

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This is probably totally anecdotal, but it seems to me that when a local PD breaks out the military equipment it doesn't seem to be targeting 'brown' people. Unless you are lumping in the brothers in Boston or the immigrant in Orlando. Generally speaking they don't need heavy gear to take a a 'brown' thug in a drug deal or robbery. As a matter of fact it seems the heavy gear comes out for rural, white religious sects or farmers. They can kill 'brown' people with sideays Glocks with basic gear. Gotta have armor for those armed country folk though. :D
 
It's not a gosh darned double standard.

Domestic police not having armor (as in vehicles) isn't under equipping law enforcement. They aren't warfighters.

This idea that LE needs to be equipped to fight ISIS, the Taliban or al Qaida is absurd.
With all due respect, we both know that statement is totally false.

Orlando
San Bernadino
Draw Muhammed Texas (Garland, was it?)

These are just a few ISIS fighters that cops did engage.

And what happens when all of these ISIS sleeper cells we know are here are activated in cities across the US?

We both know the answer isn't as simple as "give cops their 38spl's and everything will be fine again" - Some agencies need firepower and protection more than others. And yes, I agree that if it is lawful for LEOs, it needs to be lawful for private citizens to own that equipment and protect themselves and their families.

But that brings other issues to light. - Would cops need to be so heavily armed if it weren't for a federal government not upholding immigration law? No, they wouldn't. Same goes for gang violence, MS13 types.

I want cops protected. I want them to be able to fulfill their duties well. I believe sometimes that means arming them up...but I want that same gear, and I want it stripped from every agency that thinks private citizens shouldn't have it. I want every anti-2A sheriff stripped of that opportunity to be tooled up. I hate them. I want every pro-liberty, 2A friendly sheriff and police force to be geared to the gills...the other guys can FOAD.

What's funny about that is Mayberry would have the equipment, Chicago wouldn't...aww too bad. Better call in Barney for backup a

So that's my 2 cents.

Yes, I understand it's not gonna be that way, probably the opposite as this gear is going to Chicago and Boston and all the others. I get it...but IDK if the right answer is just to tell them to go screw themselves.

Let's be real...this is "surplus" at retail prices, and the MIC is happy to supply it.
 
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Well, Ive been in a bearcat while a barricaded subject was shooting at us. It was very nice to have hard cover in the front yard, listening to the rounds "ping" off the truck, and no one was injured by the gun fire. And we didn't need the NG to come in. Tactics are exactly that. Tactics. What you do with the equipment you have, with a very fluid amount of information you have at the time of a tactical situation.

I dont agree with seeing "snipers" pointing weapons off MRAPS at protestors. I don't see that as good police work. I wasn't there, but I didn't like what it portrayed, and that is what prompted Obamas rule of law.

I will tell you, that as a medic that worked with a SWAT team for years…. Not everyone is bad in LE. Nor are they all heavy handed. Nor are they all idiots. The things that I see posted here by folks (wrong house, wrong person, etc etc. ) is the exception, not the rule. At least I can speak for the Triad group of LEO special operations. So, don't paint with a broad brush, especially if you don't have carnal knowledge of how things work.

Also. Most everyone can agree that an MRAP is a bit much. It is. Mine resistant equipment. Its nuts for the level of force USUALLY encountered by your normal gangbanger. The issue is, that you have a patrol car that is not bullet proof, or suited for special operations, and the other civilian LE option is a $180,000-$300,000 Lenco Bearcat that comes from tax money and budget. Or a free armored vehicle from .mil. Its not rocket science. With 300,000 I can buy 12 patrol cars. And get something the Tac Team rolls out 10 times a year for free.
 
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This is probably totally anecdotal, but it seems to me that when a local PD breaks out the military equipment it doesn't seem to be targeting 'brown' people. Unless you are lumping in the brothers in Boston or the immigrant in Orlando. Generally speaking they don't need heavy gear to take a a 'brown' thug in a drug deal or robbery. As a matter of fact it seems the heavy gear comes out for rural, white religious sects or farmers. They can kill 'brown' people with sideays Glocks with basic gear. Gotta have armor for those armed country folk though. :D
I'm speaking to how they the ideas are able to get past the opinions of the masses. The general public is fine with them having this stuff because they've led to believe it would never be used on them. It's like "I support the 2A BUT" crowd


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All I can add is: read William R. Forstchen's little novella "Day of Wrath".
It's even downloadable from Amazon on your Kindle. Makes you wonder about all those sleeper cells we KNOW are already here.
 
I'm speaking to how they the ideas are able to get past the opinions of the masses. The general public is fine with them having this stiff because they've beaded to believe it would never be used on them.

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So kinda like the phrase 'middle classs'? Everybody thinks that's who they are. The family of 6 making $50k. Middle class. The family of 3 making $150k? Middle class. Suburban couple making $400k! Middle class!

The reverse of this is 'working class'. Which really mean students and unemployed people. Anybody with an income is not really the 'working man'.
 
Also. Most everyone can agree that an MRAP is a bit much. It is. Mine resistant equipment. Its nuts for the level of force USUALLY encountered by your normal gangbanger. The issue is, that you have a patrol car that is not bullet proof, or suited for special operations, and the other civilian LE option is a $180,000-$300,000 Lenco Bearcat that comes from tax money and budget. Or a free armored vehicle from .mil. Its not rocket science. With 300,000 I can buy 12 patrol cars. And get something the Tac Team rolls out 10 times a year for free.
I'm sorry but this is how it works: your agencies convince the political bosses that somehow you NEED this gear. The politicos then DEMAND or rather EXTORT the money from the populace under the threat of your agencies showing up to use force if we disagree and refuse to pay for it. That process and behavior is no different than the street thug committing armed robbery, I'm sorry, but no I'm not willing to pay to armor the govt's agents to that degree. I don't buy into the line of fear sufficiently to want to do so.
 
Well I can only speak from my experience. I did about 10 years working in emergency services with a budget. I worked in emergency services when we had to get military surplus bandaging stuff for the ambulances. I also remember when one of the local police departments had a homemade Bearcat, that was made on a Dodge 2500 chassis. And looked like one of those stupid storm chasing vehicles. It was made in the 1980s or 1970s, and that Police Department hasn't run Rogue and tried to take over the City by martial law because they have a storm chasing armored vehicle. Lol.


I assume you had some bad experience with this in the past. I have not. I don't see that the government is trying to give away thousands of mraps to the local law enforcement to make a Hunger Games militant civilian force. That's just my perspective, and you are entitled to yours.
 
Better not let the police get this stuff cause they will just be itching to use it. Just like letting people walk around with guns, they are just itching to use them. Maybe next time noways local PD has some nut holed up shooting at the locals, he can just walk right up and get the guy like Sheriff Andy would have done?
 
I'm sorry but this is how it works: your agencies convince the political bosses that somehow you NEED this gear. The politicos then DEMAND or rather EXTORT the money from the populace under the threat of your agencies showing up to use force if we disagree and refuse to pay for it. That process and behavior is no different than the street thug committing armed robbery, I'm sorry, but no I'm not willing to pay to armor the govt's agents to that degree. I don't buy into the line of fear sufficiently to want to do so.

With respect to ES capital equipment, that's not how it works (if they have to budget for it). Almost no one will spend $ for a low-use piece of capital equipment. If they did, you would see more ambulances that don't have duct tape somewhere on them.

No one is arguing for crew-served weps or offensive weps. An up-armored vehicle is not an absurd request; however, I do see that low-use/no-use departments won't benefit, which is why I advocate a regional management approach. This has worked particularly well in rural areas for tac teams, EOD, rescue/recovery dive teams, and HAZMAT.
 
“Soldierin’ and policin’ – they ain’t the same thing.”

Major Howard “Bunny” Colvin, The Wire Season 3, Episode 10 (2014)



Reading through the responses, my likes clearly indicate which side I fall on…I hold a very strong opinion regarding the militarization of civilian law enforcement agencies (CLEA), local, state and federal…this includes not only the military equipment, but the cultural, organizational, and operational changes that occur within the agency as a result.


DHS is the largest benefactor of the 1033 program…and that is a significant concern.


Up front, I do expect every local patrolman to have a shotgun (riotgun) or AR styled rifle in their cruiser, along with body armor (concealed & worn always) and the proper training to employ the weapons…the nature of criminal conduct in the U.S. today warrants such, much the same as the initial arming of CLEA with “tommy guns” and BARs during the prohibition era made sense.

Additionally, Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams are a necessary ingredient for many local and state agencies, though clearly not all require them, and every member of the force need not be a SWAT team member.


With military equipment comes military training…followed by a training induced military mind-set (Hey look, I’m an operator!)…changes in the culture of the organization and how it operates will follow.

We no longer have time for traffic patrol…lets put up red light cameras to do our job so we can have more time at TRC for tactical training.

Oh, we also need a significant budget increase…maintenance for all of our new military gear and training programs, and lets not forget to accessorize our new equipment!


I am still appalled that the good citizens of Boston rolled over when their constitutional rights were suspended in the wake of the bombing and the subsequent occupation of the city by a paramilitary CLEA Army…well organized and equipped, at times many elements of this “Army” were often indistinguishable from the very best equipped active duty U.S Army units (see photos at end). What should have been a detailed police investigation turned into a neighborhood by neighborhood, house to house urban clearing operation by uniformed, paramilitary civilian law enforcement, augmented by select ARNG capabilities. American Liberty took a full frontal that day, and not from the terrorists ,but from its own.


The riots most closely remembered, Ferguson, Baltimore, even tiny Charlottesville do not hold a candle to the race riots of the 60s in Watts and Detroit, or the 92 LA riots…these required significant deployments of not only ARNG forces, but active duty military forces…and that is what is supposed to happen when CLEA are overwhelmed (by shear numbers) or overmatched (by weaponry), same with the Katrina response (as bad as it was).


I disagree with building up CLEA’s to provide a military level response to civilian situations…if a military response is warranted, let the military handle it. If you want to play operator and “operate”, enlist today…we are still a nation at war and your boots are needed overseas.


This is a very informative read that was recently published: Militarization and police violence: The case of the 1033 program
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885


These pictures from the Boston response speak volumes…what if you were the family depicted, no warrant, just get out…or if they were pointing their weapons at you…was this necessary…Liberty with a knife at her throat.

10-2-News-Story-07.jpg 041913swatsweep_640x360.jpg 130419_PHOTO_MANHUNTBOSTON_029.jpg.CROP.article920-large.jpg Boston-martial-law2b.jpg chin041913manhunt_met4.jpg gzdtghu.jpg eda962c69373ee482bf826fbbaca5662--swat-police-the-secret.jpg
 
I agree anytime that we rely on man we should expect to be let down at some point. No one is perfect. What would be a better system? Not baiting or trying to start anything. Honestly want to know the opinions of others. I'm not under the illusion that I have all the answers.

It's not "at some point." Corruption, immorality and abuse is always the result of any system which gives too much power of the few, and their policy enforcers/revenuers, over the masses.

Always, without fail.

Those other 9 dangerous jobs are they dangerous because people from other companies come up and shoot them in the head?

Maybe you choose not to see a difference but you know it's there.

It's more like 14 more dangerous jobs....and counting. Again, the difference is simply a matter of propoganda controlling perception. Reality doesn't support your argument.

imrs.php

With all due respect, we both know that statement is totally false.

Orlando
San Bernadino
Draw Muhammed Texas (Garland, was it?)

These are just a few ISIS fighters that cops did engage.

And what happens when all of these ISIS sleeper cells we know are here are activated in cities across the US?

Something, something can't judge majority of interactions based on a few outliers something something can't change SOP despite evidence something something.....

We both don't "know" your emotions overrule the way things actually work in the real world.

We both know the answer isn't as simple as "give cops their 38spl's and everything will be fine again" - Some agencies need firepower and protection more than others. And yes, I agree that if it is lawful for LEOs, it needs to be lawful for private citizens to own that equipment and protect themselves and their families.

But that brings other issues to light. - Would cops need to be so heavily armed if it weren't for a federal government not upholding immigration law? No, they wouldn't. Same goes for gang violence, MS13 types.

There wouldn't be rich and powerful drug cartels, mini mafias, or MS13 without government laws that are designed specifically to create a black market (Prohibition is Prohibition - alcohol or drugs) and criminalize victimless behavior for the purpose of generating money for the State.

Regardless of Trump's bloviating, the vast majority of violent crime (which is at 40 year lows, mind you) wouldn't just go away with a wall keeping Mexicans out of the country.

I want cops protected. I want them to be able to fulfill their duties well. I believe sometimes that means arming them up...but I want that same gear, and I want it stripped from every agency that thinks private citizens shouldn't have it. I want every anti-2A sheriff stripped of that opportunity to be tooled up. I hate them. I want every pro-liberty, 2A friendly sheriff and police force to be geared to the gills...the other guys can FOAD.

What's funny about that is Mayberry would have the equipment, Chicago wouldn't...aww too bad. Better call in Barney for backup a

So that's my 2 cents.

Yes, I understand it's not gonna be that way, probably the opposite as this gear is going to Chicago and Boston and all the others. I get it...but IDK if the right answer is just to tell them to go screw themselves.

Let's be real...this is "surplus" at retail prices, and the MIC is happy to supply it.

So knowing how you want it to be will never happen, you still approve of the means by which the Rights and Liberties of the People will, and I do say will because it happens daily, be violated by those employed by the State to force the will of Government upon the People, against our consent, through violence or the threat of violence, because the most corrupt group of people in the country sat in a marble building and agreed that this violation or that infringement was ok?

No, we don't agree on much... certainly not on the points of your post.

Being a law abiding Citizen in a Society in which the corrupt write the laws is not a virtue.

Being the enforcers of such corrupt law is worse.

Being a law abiding Citizen that defends that enforcement isn't being a Citizen at all, but a subject.

My ancestors fought a war against the police and the army to ensure they never wore that title again. I'll be damned if I accept it willingly or pass it along to my children to ensure a few less cops buy the farm while they're out working the will of the State on the People.
 
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Here's an article on what they can get: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/trump-just-reauthorized-police-to-use-high-tech-military-gear-—-heres-what-they-can-get/ss-AAqRZQF?li=BBnb7Kz#image=1

It includes: 50 caliber or greater weapons, grenade launchers, armored track vehicles, and weaponized air craft.

Although one can make a case for the grenade launcher for LTL, I can see the argument against; and not a single good argument for any of the other stuff.
 
Although one can make a case for the grenade launcher for LTL, I can see the argument against; and not a single good argument for any of the other stuff.

WHY DO YOU WANT COPS TO BE UNDER EQUIPPED?!?!?!!?
15275599_1322540574484954_6273154182279069696_n.jpg
















(See how silly this argument appears?)
 
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So, please be clear: what equipment, exactly, do you think they should not have? Do YOU want cops to be underequipped?

Select fire weapons, armored vehicles, incendiaries/explosives, armed aircraft, camouflage uniforms (this goes to institutional mindset)....

The number one thing they should not have is "the warrior mindset," as they aren't warfighters. Period.

Warriors without a real war to fight often make one up - which is precisely what we're seeing in civilian law enforcement in these United States.

In a free society, there's a reason you separate the military from the police. One fights the enemies of the State; the other exists to protect the Rights of the People. When the lines are blurred and they become indistinguishable from each other, the enemies of the State tend to become the People.
 
Select fire weapons, armored vehicles, incendiaries/explosives, armed aircraft, camouflage uniforms (this goes to institutional mindset)....

The number one thing they should not have is "the warrior mindset," as they aren't warfighters. Period.

Warriors without a real war to fight often make one up - which is precisely what we're seeing in civilian law enforcement in these United States.

In a free society, there's a reason you separate the military from the police. One fights the enemies of the State; the other exists to protect the Rights of the People. When the lines are blurred and they become indistinguishable from each other, the enemies of the State tend to become the People.

Thanks. I would agree with the list except for armored/up-armored vehicles. That is defensive, not offensive.
 
They should have a squad car, a radio, and a .38 special with one round in their shirt pocket.
Honestly, I am starting to think we should dispense with having government police. I can think of a lot of reasons why the government should NOT have it's own enforcement powers, but rather that should be the responsibility of the citizens themselves who are NOT in the employ of the government. That way if The People don't agree with the "law" they can tell the law makers to go get stuffed.

Thanks. I would agree with the list except for armored/up-armored vehicles. That is defensive, not offensive.
I think it could easily become an offensive strategy as it would encourage tactics that they would otherwise be unable to use.
 
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Here is the problem, as I see it, with equipping the police with military gear.

We have long had a constitutional provision that does not allow for the military to act on US soil. What we are doing by militarizing the police is forming an armed military on US soil. And an active one at that.

My definition of the equipment they should not be allowed to have is anything that is not readily available to the citizens they are tasked with protecting.

I'm a firm believer that our military should not be allowed anything that we are not allowed to have, as that was one of the main purposes of the second amendment. That is triply so for the police.

Body armor? Sure, I can buy that.

Full auto weapons manufactured after the mid 80's...Nope.

A HMMWV? Sure, I can get one at auction now. But no driving it on the streets unless I can too.

MRAP's....Nope because those are not available to the public.

The list goes on. There is a fine line between officer safety and forming a standing, and armed military force on US soil. We crossed that line sometime in the 90's.
 
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