Thoughts on Form 1'ing a Pistol Before August?

fyreous

fyreous

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Hey all,

I am curious as to what people's thoughts are on preemptively doing a form 1 for an AR pistol, before the Aug 2022 rule on braces comes into effect? Seems like approval times are pretty quick right now, and my fear is that if I wait until August, there might be a huge backlog and it will take a lot longer to get an approval. Alternatively, I know many are choosing to wait and see if the rule changes at all before going into effect, or if it gets challenged in court. I don't like the idea of being on a federal list if I don't have to be, but I like not being in jail even more. Thoughts?
 
You can do it if you want to. You have three years from the date you pay the tax to ask for a refund on the stamp. All you have to do is say the firearm was never made into an NFA configuration.

So if the ruling ends up not impacting you, just get your money back. Or keep the stamp in case you ever decide to SBR that one down the road.
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
I'm very anti sbr on a practical point just for how many extra restrictions they have over a pistol. The movement between states stuff is insane.
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I don't often go out of state, but yes I agree it would sure be a pain if for some reason I had to and also needed to bring my AR with me. But if I understand correctly, I could simply reconfigure it back to a pistol (i.e., remove the brace), or put a different upper on it that has a 16" barrel and turn it into a regular rifle, and then I'm fine. Permission is only needed if it goes across state lines in any sort of NFA config. Right?
 
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fyreous said:
I don't often go out of state, but yes I agree it would sure be a pain if for some reason I had to and also needed to bring my AR with me. But if I understand correctly, I could simply reconfigure it back to a pistol (i.e., remove the brace), or put a different upper on it that has a 16" barrel and turn it into a regular rifle, and then I'm fine. Permission is only needed if it goes across state lines in any sort of NFA config. Right?
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That's my understanding.
 
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fyreous said:
I don't often go out of state, but yes I agree it would sure be a pain if for some reason I had to and also needed to bring my AR with me. But if I understand correctly, I could simply reconfigure it back to a pistol (i.e., remove the brace), or put a different upper on it that has a 16" barrel and turn it into a regular rifle, and then I'm fine. Permission is only needed if it goes across state lines in any sort of NFA config. Right?
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Correct. (Assuming you meant remove the stock and install a brace reconfigure to meet whatever the current definition of non-SBR is at the moment)

You could also do what I do…and file forms every year for the states around you. I spend less than a minute, once a year, and can take 11 different firearms to 10 others states with no advance warning.

I understand the complaints about having to do it in the first place, but the ones that constantly complain about how difficult it is haven’t thought it through or just don’t know better.
 
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Personally I F1’d a lower some time ago because I wanted to hedge my bets if there was ever a question about the legality of an AR pistol … even before the brace crap. I feel the $200 investment protected my investment in a couple sub 14.5” uppers. I built a SBR lower with utilitarian usage in mind … simple CTR collapsible stock, ALG combat trigger and such. 95% of the time it wears a .300BO 8” upper for suppressed use but 2 pins and a 5.56 10.5” upper slides on. That $200 investment made since in my mind as a “just in case” even before the brace issue.

As to interstate travel … it’s not hard to file a couple 5320‘s for various states every year as a “just in case”. It really is not much of a hassle and like a CHP just make sure you know the laws concerning a SBR in a state you’re heading for.
 
NCFubar said:
Personally I F1’d a lower some time ago because I wanted to hedge my bets if there was ever a question about the legality of an AR pistol … even before the brace crap. I feel the $200 investment protected my investment in a couple sub 14.5” uppers. I built a SBR lower with utilitarian usage in mind … simple CTR collapsible stock, ALG combat trigger and such. 95% of the time it wears a .300BO 8” upper for suppressed use but 2 pins and a 5.56 10.5” upper slides on. That $200 investment made since in my mind as a “just in case” even before the brace issue.

As to interstate travel … it’s not hard to file a couple 5320‘s for various states every year as a “just in case”. It really is not much of a hassle and like a CHP just make sure you know the laws concerning a SBR in a state you’re heading for.
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Great minds think alike. Could not have said it better. Need to get my eForm 1 in.
 
Me. said:
The upcoming August ruling has to do with personally manufactured firearms (PMF) (ghost guns).
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August is supposed to be the brace ruling.

B10B9319-F62F-4C5C-9AC7-A98D9C49703B.jpeg

According to the Federal Register (Vol. 87, No. 20), the ATF has set tentative dates to finalize two proposed rulings with potential to significantly impact FFLs and gun owners. The rulings are related to the “Definition of ‘Frame or Receiver’ and Identification of Firearms” and “Factoring Criteria for Firearms With an Attached Stabilizing Brace,” with final action expected in June and August 2022, respectively.
 
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As a practical matter, under the pending definition I don’t see how an SBR can become a pistol by swapping the stock for a brace.
 
BigWaylon said:
Correct. (Assuming you meant remove the stock and install a brace reconfigure to meet whatever the current definition of non-SBR is at the moment)

You could also do what I do…and file forms every year for the states around you. I spend less than a minute, once a year, and can take 11 different firearms to 10 others states with no advance warning.

I understand the complaints about having to do it in the first place, but the ones that constantly complain about how difficult it is haven’t thought it through or just don’t know better.
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I've never looked into filing these forms but can you really just spam them? Just put out a form for going everywhere?
 
JimB said:
As a practical matter, under the pending definition I don’t see how an SBR can become a pistol by swapping the stock for a brace.
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Yep, that's what I understand as well. The brace would have to come off entirely (post-August).

NCFubar said:
As to interstate travel … it’s not hard to file a couple 5320‘s for various states every year as a “just in case”. It really is not much of a hassle and like a CHP just make sure you know the laws concerning a SBR in a state you’re heading for.
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How do you file a 5320 preemptively without knowing the address you'll be heading to? Sorry, maybe a bit of a newbie question, but I was under the impression that for a 5320 to be valid, you have to be within 100 miles of the address you put on it. Maybe I'm misinformed on that though…
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
I've never looked into filing these forms but can you really just spam them? Just put out a form for going everywhere?
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You have to provide an address. One form per state. But interstate travel is what’s restricted…not intrastate.

So I searched online and found a gun range in each of the states around me and submitted using that. You can request up to a year (doesn’t have to be calendar year) at a time, just as long as the end date is one day prior the following year. For example, you can do 1/1/22-12/31/22, 5/10/22-5/9/23, 7/1/22-6/30/23, etc, etc.

I keep it simple and file each fall for the entire following year. All I have to do is change the years on the form, save, and email. Everything else (day, month, serial numbers, addresses, etc) stays the same.
 
fyreous said:
…but I was under the impression that for a 5320 to be valid, you have to be within 100 miles of the address you put on it. Maybe I'm misinformed on that though…
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First time I’ve ever heard that…and I’ve heard a lot of crap over the years. 😁

As I just posted above, interstate is limited…intrastate is not (unless there’s a local law preventing a particular category of firearm).
 
BigWaylon said:
First time I’ve ever heard that…and I’ve heard a lot of crap over the years. 😁

As I just posted above, interstate is limited…intrastate is not (unless there’s a local law preventing a particular category of firearm).
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Yeah, I was trying to research where I read that but I can't seem to find it now. What you are saying makes sense, and honestly sounds pretty straightforward if I do go the Form 1 route… which I am leaning towards.
 
BigWaylon said:
You have to provide an address. One form per state. But interstate travel is what’s restricted…not intrastate.

So I searched online and found a gun range in each of the states around me and submitted using that. You can request up to a year (doesn’t have to be calendar year) at a time, just as long as the end date is one day prior the following year. For example, you can do 1/1/22-12/31/22, 5/10/22-5/9/23, 7/1/22-6/30/23, etc, etc.

I keep it simple and file each fall for the entire following year. All I have to do is change the years on the form, save, and email. Everything else (day, month, serial numbers, addresses, etc) stays the same.
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BigWaylon said:
You have to provide an address. One form per state. But interstate travel is what’s restricted…not intrastate.

So I searched online and found a gun range in each of the states around me and submitted using that. You can request up to a year (doesn’t have to be calendar year) at a time, just as long as the end date is one day prior the following year. For example, you can do 1/1/22-12/31/22, 5/10/22-5/9/23, 7/1/22-6/30/23, etc, etc.

I keep it simple and file each fall for the entire following year. All I have to do is change the years on the form, save, and email. Everything else (day, month, serial numbers, addresses, etc) stays the same.
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So if I fill out forms for a gun to be in South Carolina and Florida for the entire year isn't that gonna cause issues? Start date 1/1 end date 12/31 and fill out a bunch of forms for every state on every gun?
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
So if I fill out forms for a gun to be in South Carolina and Florida for the entire year isn't that gonna cause issues? Start date 1/1 end date 12/31 and fill out a bunch of forms for every state on every gun?
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It’s temporary travel, in between those dates. Not that it has to be in those locations for the whole duration.

I can tell you from personal experience if having multiple approved forms, for the same SN, to be in two different locations at the same time, was a no-go…they’d have locked me up a long time ago. 😳

Send them one PDF with all the forms…and they send every page back in a separate envelope. 🙄

F8F0F354-C7F1-4CFE-8EA3-3DFC09F748D2.jpeg4E7A26AE-1F6C-4349-81CE-E6854F078D3E.jpeg20F9380C-539D-46DE-B54C-D70C18E784B2.jpeg72B3935D-C76F-47A8-B698-17AF9A4E2529.jpeg
 
BigWaylon said:
It’s temporary travel, in between those dates. Not that it has to be in those locations for the whole duration.

I can tell you from personal experience if having multiple approved forms, for the same SN, to be in two different locations at the same time, was a no-go…they’d have locked me up a long time ago. 😳

Send them one PDF with all the forms…and they send every page back in a separate envelope. 🙄

View attachment 471744View attachment 471745View attachment 471746View attachment 471747
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So big brain move is to fill out all 49 states all the time for everything
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
So big brain move is to fill out all 49 states all the time for everything
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That’ll get you some rejected forms…as not all categories of NFA items are legal in the other 49 states. 😝
 
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fyreous said:
Yeah, I was trying to research where I read that but I can't seem to find it now. What you are saying makes sense, and honestly sounds pretty straightforward if I do go the Form 1 route… which I am leaning towards.
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Most hear rely on @BigWaylon for NFA advice. I swear he has more stamps than the rest of us combined.
 
NCFubar said:
Most hear rely on @BigWaylon for NFA advice. I swear he has more stamps than the rest of us combined.
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There are several here with way more than me. They just don’t post as much. 🤣🤣
 
amnesia said:
I like that my concealed handgun permit allowed me to also treat my AR as a pistol as it rides around with me.
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Just remember if you cross into SC they do not consider an AR pistol a concealable weapon under their Code of Law governing their Concealed Weapon Permit vs NC’s Concealed Handgun Permit …

(5) "Concealable weapon" means a firearm having a length of less than twelve inches measured along its greatest dimension that may be carried openly on one's person or in a manner that is hidden from public view in normal wear of clothing except when needed for self defense, defense of others, and the protection of real or personal property.

… just one of the differences from state to state.
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
You can return nfa items to their orginal non nfa config and treat them as not a nfa item
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Today, yes, but once they pass the new rule most guns that we believe are AR pistols today will be SBRs. As a result, there really isn’t an original non nfa configuration to return them to. Even if you remove the stock and don’t install a brace it likely scores as an SBR. Legally it’d he possible to return it to a non nfa pistol format, but practically I’m not sure that such a thing will exist.
 
JimB said:
Today, yes, but once they pass the new rule most guns that we believe are AR pistols today will be SBRs. As a result, there really isn’t an original non nfa configuration to return them to. Even if you remove the stock and don’t install a brace it likely scores as an SBR. Legally it’d he possible to return it to a non nfa pistol format, but practically I’m not sure that such a thing will exist
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16inch Barrels are a thing. Also I'll be ignoring the atf calling a thing with no stock a rifle, good luck with that court case
 
I mean why else do you think they revamped eforms. You know it wasnt because people were complaining about a year + wait time.
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
16inch Barrels are a thing. Also I'll be ignoring the atf calling a thing with no stock a rifle, good luck with that court case
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Now you’re talking about changing the upper, which is easy enough, I thought we were talking about changes to lowers, my bad.

ATF isn’t dumb, the first unstocked SBR case will be in front of a judge and jury that will agree with them, NY, NJ, CA, WA, DC, etc. Then it holds until there is another case in another federal court that gets a different outcome. Then we do the supreme court dance to see if the boys amd girls in robes want to weigh …..and even if they do, you and I will he long past our shooting days, and probably past our breathing days.
 
I want to buy some 8.5" 300BLK uppers to build into (non-braced) pistols, but the realist and pessimist in me say to wait until after August to see what happens. 😔
 
Me. said:
If you SBR a "pistol", can you ever legally return it to the "original configuration"?

Isn't the rule "once a rifle, always a rifle"?

Is a rifle a firearm subject to the NFA? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

A rifle is defined, in part, as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

Once I'm a "maker" of a short barrel rifle, regardless of the donor parts, I have made a rifle, haven't I?

If I return it to the previous "pistol" state, I would think I just made a "Weapon Made from a Rifle".

Firearms Guide - Identification of Firearms - Section 5 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page | Back to Table of Contents | Next Page l2ga. Crude Manufacture Classification Weapon Made from a Shotgun Distinctive Characteristics Barrel less than 18 inches and/or overall length less than 26 inches, stock altered, barrel cut down. Often mistakenly called a "sawed off shotgun."...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov


I'm certainly no expert, just asking questions based on what I read on the ATF site.
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Nope.

Once a rifle, always a rifle isn’t a thing.
First a rifle, always a rifle is a thing.

Very big difference in once vs first.
 
When it comes to ATF laws remember that 99% of the time 1st contact will be with a local agency and most LEO’s know little to nothing about NFA laws so you will be explaining them to him before the ATF even comes sniffing. Some will be open unless you’ve done something else really stupid (not just a traffic violation or such) while others may push it up the chain of command … even to “let the judge decide”. Best thing is know state laws (and sometimes even local) which will be the first line of “you got some splainin to do” then NFA/federal laws. You’d be surprised how many LEO’s don’t even know the CHP laws … much less how to determine a SBR from an AR pistol.
 
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