We thought that about the woman cop too.Most likely plea to manslaughter.
Most likely plea to manslaughter.
If she admitted what she did was wrong she would have gotten manslaughter. Instead she plead not guilty.We thought that about the woman cop too.
After reading this, here's the first thing I thought of-
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It was someone from the B/S/T part of the forum meeting up.Are you thinking drug deal? Prostitution? Both? Affair? Or something else?
I agree with your post and I think your point is extremely important.Now-a-days, while the police apologist's go on & on about how their training is better than it ever has been, the standard method has become to storm the situation screaming and yelling confusing orders while brandishing hardware with the hammer pulled back and a shaky finger on the trigger.
Wtf? This is considered 'better training'? Swarming in screaming like a bunch of Apache's ramping everything up to eleven on a scale of ten?
How did it come to this? The Police own this crap. They got sold on the citizenry being the enemy and needing to adopt militaristic methods and attitudes.
There are many lawmen who, although get trained in these methods, realize that most of the time it's completely unnecessary and act accordingly.
And God love em for it.
Whats it gonna take to get back to keep everything and everybody calm?
The police and the citizens are just the pawns in this game. The kings and queens in the administrations that insist on using these horrendous methods are the ones who need to be taken to the courthouse square and hung till dead.
Luckily for him, firemen seem to get along well with dogs.
I don't see an easy fix to this whole situation. For the last few years, the police have been getting more and more militarized, and the citizens are starting to fear police interactions more than before.
I personally think that police training should emphasize de-escalation and critical thinking. We need peace officers, not war fighters. Train them to be problem solvers first. I feel like almost all of these officer shootings could have been prevented if the officer in question had just thought about the situation, and asked questions instead of going for the gun the moment the situation looked scary.
Police need to view their weapons not as a "tool of the trade" but as a last resort that's put to use when nonviolent methods of maintaining the peace have failed.
Some officers just aren't cut out to be cops. Its a high stress job. An officer needs to be able to keep their cool, and remain both calm and confident in high stress situations. They need to be able to cope with people from all walks of life. It really helps if they're not afraid of dogs.
I'm reminded of a fire scene years ago I responded to. The fire was set as part of a domestic situation, so police responded with the FD. I recall one officer in particular, got jumpy and loosened his handgun in his holster as he approached the fence. There was a dog in the yard, and I remember him saying "if that dog comes near me, I'm shooting it." Luckily for him, firemen seem to get along well with dogs.
Right before we went into Iraq our unit did CQD with Duane Dieter (look him up). The training was some of the best I have even had, anywhere. It wasn't zero to 100 in a second, it was applying the right level of acceptable response to the right situation. It was everything cops need, all the time. We 'let' more bad people live because they de-escalated when we forced them to, and we de-escalated when they did. You dial it up, you dial it down. In other words, you don't kill a housefly with a sledge hammer.
Power struggle. If you don't give someone an out, it will get violent. It's the only real solution. Until the one's with the power to restrain, hurt, or kill you realize that and give the folks they are dealing with a way out that is exactly the direction it is heading. When things start down that path, most folks will seek a way out. If they are not given a way out of violence, their way out is through you.
But in this situation there was not even enough time to establish a power struggle and she was certainly never given any real chance to do anything other than get shot.
Power struggle. If you don't give someone an out, it will get violent. It's the only real solution. Until the one's with the power to restrain, hurt, or kill you realize that and give the folks they are dealing with a way out that is exactly the direction it is heading. When things start down that path, most folks will seek a way out. If they are not given a way out of violence, their way out is through you.
But in this situation there was not even enough time to establish a power struggle and she was certainly never given any real chance to do anything other than get shot.
Well, yes and no. You don't have to give anyone an 'out.' You do have to show them that the alternative of non-compliance is worse (and maybe that's what you mean and I misunderstood. I do that sometimes). Proportional response is sorely lacking in LE curriculum; when/if they get it, they don't consistently train for it. Say what you will about the highway patrol (I have my own opinions about the King's Revenue Service), they do train like this, a lot.
HIGH POINT, N.C. -- The Guilford County Sheriff's Office has released the identity of the man killed following a standoff in High Point.
Around 8:30 a.m. Monday, a deputy came to 4014 Braddock Road for a padlocking of the home pursuant to a civil writ of possession, Capt. Brian Hall said.
A man in the home shoved the deputy and went back inside, barricading himself.
I've probably OC'd thirty dogs on the job, Chows make up 99.9 percent of them. Chows are territorial to the max; if you're in their zone and you aren't family, it's on. No amount of talking or non-threatening body language or tone will work.Pretty much.
In almost 20 years, I've run across everything on the job from Lhasas to AmStaffs...I've only ran across ONE dog that wasn't having any part of an ear-scratchin or belly rub. It was a Chow and it had a serious weed up its ass. Wasn't the first dog that ever barked, growled, snarled or "smiled" at me, but it's the only one I've ever crossed paths with that, imo, couldn't be approached.
If I am not mistaken, Chows are consistently the number one on the dangerous dog breeds.I've probably OC'd thirty dogs on the job, Chows make up 99.9 percent of them. Chows are territorial to the max; if you're in their zone and you aren't family, it's on.
That, sir, would definitely not surprise me at all !!! They're great yard and house dogs, but you're either "us" or "them" once you enter the yard. They don't hesitate at all.If I am not mistaken, Chows are consistently the number one on the dangerous dog breeds.
Real training would obviously be great, but it seems to me that even something as simple as reading and thinking about the book Verbal Judo could really help officers with this kind of thing.Well, yes and no. You don't have to give anyone an 'out.' You do have to show them that the alternative of non-compliance is worse (and maybe that's what you mean and I misunderstood. I do that sometimes). Proportional response is sorely lacking in LE curriculum; when/if they get it, they don't consistently train for it. Say what you will about the highway patrol (I have my own opinions about the King's Revenue Service), they do train like this, a lot.
I've probably OC'd thirty dogs on the job, Chows make up 99.9 percent of them. Chows are territorial to the max; if you're in their zone and you aren't family, it's on. No amount of talking or non-threatening body language or tone will work.
See, cop-haters... we don't shoot them all just for kicks.
And to the same cop-haters, (back on thread now) please remember this case when you claim "blue covers up for blue" in your next blind rage/ rant. Cops want the bad cops put away even more than you do. We're not covering up crap for them. I love everybody on this forum, but some of you guys need to relax and breathe... I won't be answering any impolite comments directed towards this, so don't bother flaming me.
And, I totally agree with the de-escalation comments. A good cop learns from older good cops and supervisors, and this is commonly learned from answering really bad service calls. Some guys can fight on every call they take, and this is noticed and they are talked to a lot, then ostracized over time. Why? Because nobody wants to have to come help them fight a houseful of folks every night.
I can't speak for the really small PDs and SO's, but in any medium sized PD and up, you learn de-escalation thru practice and training. Because that's how you stay alive, serve your beat population, and keep your job. Nobody believes this "warzone" talk, at least no officers with over two years on the job, so forget that nonsense. That's TV and rookie talk there, or maybe Barney trying to "defy the mafia".
OC is another name for pepper spray: oleoresin capsicum (OC)What does OC'ed stand for?
oleoresin capsicum; real hot mace with UV marker and CS, basically.OC is another name for pepper spray: oleoresin capsicum (OC)
Very effective on dogs, probably more so than humans. I recall a story where a guy had a neighbor with an aggressive dog and he sprayed it. Afterwards all he had to do was look at the dog and it would run away while yelping because it was so scared of him.oleoresin capsicum; real hot mace with UV marker and CS, basically.
I loved my 3 chows I used to have. Age took 2 of them and lady in neighborhood in Ky poisoned the 3rd (several other dogs too). Very loyal dogs.
CD
And to the same cop-haters, (back on thread now) please remember this case when you claim "blue covers up for blue" in your next blind rage/ rant. Cops want the bad cops put away even more than you do. We're not covering up crap for them. I love everybody on this forum, but some of you guys need to relax and breathe... I won't be answering any impolite comments directed towards this, so don't bother flaming me.
Nobody believes this "warzone" talk, at least no officers with over two years on the job, so forget that nonsense. That's TV and rookie talk there, or maybe Barney trying to "defy the mafia".
Training... Experience... Hiring better people to start with. The job doesn't pay enough to draw the cream of the crop or enough to retain the best of them. Most young people who go into Law Enforcement actually want to make the world a better place... That gets beaten out of them quickly. Then there are those who want action and can't wait for it to occur , which it will, naturally. Hopefully they get weeded out but since there aren't enough bodies to fill the positions now they are reluctant to give up any help even if it isn't great help.So to all of you LEOs on here, How do we stop things like this lady being killed by a trigger happy rookie?
Sorry but this was an isolated incident. The fact that we actively scour the media looking for aberrations and discuss them ad nauseam make you think the incidents are occurring more frequently. Remember for each travesty like this one, out of over 700,000 cops in the country 699,999 didn't shoot an innocent.Don't fall back on "this was an isolated incident" because you don't have to look far to see that the frequency of events like this are increasing across our country.
I can't help but hear the anti gunners chants when I read this. "How do we stop gun violence?" The unpleasant fact is as long as we are dealing with humans errors are going to be made. All we can do is deal with them appropriately when they do.I think the public desires events like this to stop, so how do you suggest we achieve that?
Training...
Every cop is lied to by everyone they talk to.
they do.
I would definitely classify any officer who fights on every call as a definite problem; I've had my share of them ( 5 years, large urban department; 6 years, state narcotics), but I've talked more people into the backseat of a car than I've ever had to make get in one. I think an officer who escalates every encounter into a fight is a poor "beat manager" and the people on his beat won't talk to him or trust him. Never mind the other officers who work adjacent to him always having to respond to the fight calls on his beat, taking them off of theirs. Additionally, those types of cops may stick around a small agency but they will not last long in any decent-sized department.No flaming.
Would you classify cops who fight on every call as good cops or bad cops?
It's anecdotal, but every officer I know, both in person and the from conversations on the interwebs is convinced there is a war against them. You are the first one to say it's not a believed thing.
This is not directed to any individual member of this forum.
I'm not a cop hater. But the attitude some of the police have nowadays needs to change.
In the situation that caused this thread it appears that the police who responded to this call did not have the attitude that they were there to see if the tenants of the home were OK, but rather they set up an ambush for an intruder.
They didn't know if the lady that was killed was an intruder or a victim. The officer shot because he was anticipating an intruder.
So, did this response team go to this dwelling with the intent to see if the tenants we OK and offer assistance, or to bust a bad guy?
I think it was the latter.
Not every call the police respond to is about a bad guy, but it appears that is the logic they are being taught.
I am probably older than most on this forum so I have lived long enough to realize the difference in the way police respond now as opposed to the way they used to respond.
The shooter in this case apparently responded with the mindset that everyone at this location was a bad guy. Was he taught to think like that?
So to all of you LEOs on here, How do we stop things like this lady being killed by a trigger happy rookie?
Tell those of us who apparently know nothing (when you know nothing about the commenters background) what should be done to prevent tragedies like this.
I am not in any way challenging anyone or belittling anyone, but I think people deserve to know what approach Law Enforcement Agencies are going to take to prevent events like the shooting of an innocent woman in her own home from outside her home by a sworn law enforcement officer.
Don't fall back on "this was an isolated incident" because you don't have to look far to see that the frequency of events like this are increasing across our country. I don't want to throw all the incidents I am referring to out here, I prefer not to throw gasoline on a flame. But it is an easy search on the internet to find plenty of other instances beside the one this thread is about.
Remember, you LEO's work for us, you are supposed to be a public servant. I think the public desires events like this to stop, so how do you suggest we achieve that?
I'm not angry at anyone on here and this post is not intend to anger anyone. I just want an answer from the law enforcement members among us. How do we prevent this from happening again?
Well articulated and thought out response, thank you for sharing your view on the subject, I found it very informative.I'm not sure we can fix this. The LEO community is just like the military, we are a mirror of society. That's why we laugh at the "jack-booted thugs" comments and the "king's men" stuff. We're your neighbors, we sit in church by you, we eat at the same restaurants, raise our kids next to yours, etc... we're not KGB. We're the same as you, just with a different calling. And, that's exactly what it is, a calling. That's why you see so many young cops causing problems with their attitudes or rude responses, they're just not meant to be there. They should have been weeded out earlier, but as a "public servant" our interactions are exactly that, public. We all know preachers or car mechanics who have absolutely no business in the job they have, but they get by for years because their interactions aren't with the general public, just a select few customers.
Again, I'm not sure we can fix this as a whole. We're madder than you at the politicians and the stupid judges, because we have to enforce what they pass. We execute a large amount of "discretion", however. For example, I've slung a lot of car keys in bushes if I run up on a parked DUI without any injuries. Other officers and most troopers live for that stuff. Not me. 2 drinks, call somebody or Uber... If you've run your car up a telephone pole or hurt somebody, you've exceeded my discretion and I have to take action. If you've punched your wife or kids, or vice versa; you're riding with me. You've exceeded my discretion. I've made kids throw out joints or roaches hundreds of times, but not charged them. But, if I catch you slinging packaged rocks or crystal; you're riding with me. I'm good with you venting your anger and letting it all air out, until there's kids in the area or you try to put your hands on them or someone else. Rage on, yell and scream how unfair life is and how your baby-mommy mistreats you; we'll listen. Hopefully, once you've sobered up you'll call or tell me about the real problems in your area; that's what I'm really here for. I've bought kids clothes when it was cold, I've brought people food, I've held peoples hands when they're sick or shot or run-over, etc... yes, it's a calling and we fight daily against the forces in our society who just want to burn it down, even if they're our elected bosses.
As far as the "militarized police " goes, I agree with most of the comments I see on here. But, having a patrol carbine in the trunk doesn't make you a "SWAT guy". A lot of the SWAT-type training with military units is just because they have the resources ( houses, vehicles, etc...) and it does go very close to what you will get on a SWAT callout. I'm former mil HRT, btw. And, I've served on local and state SRTs. I'm telling you the training doesn't usually get offered to the patrol guys, they don't need it and typically don't want it. As far as the 10-22 program ( offering surplus mil equipment to local departments) goes, I've never seen it to really have an impact on day-to-day operations. The MRAPs are a joke at a local PD, they're not going to spend the money to maintain them anyway; but they look cool for a moment.
I do think we should go back to wearing regular polyester uniforms with a proper appearance; I don't care for the fatigue look unless you've got a specialized unit that requires it for an event, not everyday wear. It just looks wrong.
I hope I've answered more questions than I've raised. Yes, I'm a 25 year guy and a supervisor. I cringe when the "millennials" get supervisor status just like you do.
How many gun deaths before you advocate abolishing the 2nd amendment?And how many "errors" before this needs to stop?