Florida "Stand Your Ground" Shooting

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blewis3

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http://www.fox13news.com/news/local...ng-spot-leads-to-deadly-shooting-deputies-say

These reporters have no idea what they are talking about. People will want to repeal the "stand your ground" law even though "stand your ground" had no relevance in this shooting.

Even in a non "stand your ground" state the fact that he did not retreat would not have mattered since he had no opportunity to safely retreat since he was on the ground and the guy was standing over him.

The only question I have in this case, (from what I could see in the video) was the idea of reasonableness. Specifically the 2nd and 3rd principle below (from Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense):
  • 2nd Principle: Was your view that the danger was imminent a reasonable view?
  • 3rd Principle: Was your estimate of the degree of force threatening you, and the degree of force you used in response, reasonable?
  • 4th Principle: Was your decision that there was no safe way to retreat a reasonable decision?
To me it looks like the guy was walking away when the shot was fired, and as far as the shoving, I do not know without more information. Did the guy have a knife? Was there sufficient disparity of force to justifying the use of deadly force?
 
My problem is that the guy that started the interaction/argument is the guy that is using stand your ground. IMO, it's a bit more complicated than that. 2nd guy should not have shoved him. But shooter shouldn't be starting arguments over a parking spot either.
 
Watched another video from that link, store owner says both men have a history.
Not sure if the guy who shoved may have been armed?

Not sure if FL law required these handicap spots to have signs, did not see one,
perhaps it was not legally marked?

I found this info http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...te&URL=0500-0599/0553/Sections/0553.5041.html

(6) Each such parking space must be striped in a manner that is consistent with the standards of the controlling jurisdiction for other spaces and prominently outlined with blue paint, and must be repainted when necessary, to be clearly distinguishable as a parking space designated for persons who have disabilities.
The space must be posted with a permanent above-grade sign of a color and design approved by the Department of Transportation, which is placed on or at least 60 inches above the finished floor or ground surface measured to the bottom of the sign and which bears the international symbol of accessibility meeting the requirements of s. 703.7.2.1 of the standards and the caption “PARKING BY DISABLED PERMIT ONLY.” Such a sign erected after October 1, 1996, must indicate the penalty for illegal use of the space.

Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, in a theme park or an entertainment complex as defined in s. 509.013 in which accessible parking is located in designated lots or areas, the signage indicating the lot as reserved for accessible parking may be located at the entrances to the lot in lieu of a sign at each parking place. This subsection does not relieve the owner of the responsibility of complying with the signage requirements of s. 502.6 of the standards.
 
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Button Pusher said:
Watched another video from that link, store owner says both men have a history.
Not sure if the guy who shoved may have been armed?

Not sure if FL law required these handicap spots to have signs, did not see one,
perhaps it was not legally marked?

I found this info http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...te&URL=0500-0599/0553/Sections/0553.5041.html

(6) Each such parking space must be striped in a manner that is consistent with the standards of the controlling jurisdiction for other spaces and prominently outlined with blue paint, and must be repainted when necessary, to be clearly distinguishable as a parking space designated for persons who have disabilities.
The space must be posted with a permanent above-grade sign of a color and design approved by the Department of Transportation, which is placed on or at least 60 inches above the finished floor or ground surface measured to the bottom of the sign and which bears the international symbol of accessibility meeting the requirements of s. 703.7.2.1 of the standards and the caption “PARKING BY DISABLED PERMIT ONLY.” Such a sign erected after October 1, 1996, must indicate the penalty for illegal use of the space.

Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, in a theme park or an entertainment complex as defined in s. 509.013 in which accessible parking is located in designated lots or areas, the signage indicating the lot as reserved for accessible parking may be located at the entrances to the lot in lieu of a sign at each parking place. This subsection does not relieve the owner of the responsibility of complying with the signage requirements of s. 502.6 of the standards.
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I didn't read that anyone in the scenario was handicapped. It seemed like it was just an excuse for an angry guy to pitch a fit.
 
One thing we all are good at is being "arm chair quarterbacks". I will include myself in that statement.
That having been said I will offer some insite for what it is worth and it is worth just what you paid for it.

On the handicap parking issue. I have a sticker and sometimes use it, sometimes not. Why? Simple, because sometimes I can walk better than other times. I have a spinal injury that I have dealt with for more than 30 years. If you don't need handicapped parking don't use it. Others may need it. Could be someones little old granny or just as easily a 25 year old veteran. Don't just assume that because you can't see a need for them to use it that there isn't one. All handicaps cannot be seen as easily as others. If they have the sticker or plate leave it alone. It is not for you to decide. You have to have a doctors note to get one. If you don't have the sticker or plate don't park there. Simple enuff. In this case there appeared to me there were plenty of other places to park and since the girlfriend didn't get out of the car she could have easily dropped the guy of at the door and pick him up when he was done. The law requires the holder of the sticker or plate(at least it does in North Carolina) to exit the car when parking so even if she had a sticker or plate she was in violation of the law. Reason enuff to get shot over or to shoot someone? NOT AT ALL.

Now for my take on the shooting. Was he justified in shooting? Maybe, maybe not. I wasn't there and don't know all the facts. Was it a violent shove? Damn skippy it was. Once my weapon was clear I don't think I would have shot unless he was attempting to engage me further. As far as the shove being a "death sentence" as someone stated no it wasn't. But depending on the physical condition of the guy on the ground it could have been a life changer. In my case the further injury to my spine that could have been done from that simple shove could easily have paralyzed me. The degeneration of my spine simply will not take a shove like that without consequences. Was that the case with this guy? I don't know and neither do you.

In end the whole situation could have been avoided. A lot was wrong here. She should not have parked there. He should not have confronted her. He should have called the cops instead and they could have ticketed her. The other guy should not have shoved him to the ground. Based on what I saw he should not have fired the shot. Now I'm done with my "armchair quarterbacking" for this one.
 
Haha. A push to the ground is a reason to shoot someone. If that is the case then every kid on the playground should get a pistol. Bullshit.
 
SPST said:
Well, this sure isn't the best case to support SYG laws.
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In my opinion, Stand your ground law had nothing to do with this shooting. They only eliminate the duty to retreat if you can safely do so. The shooter was on the ground and did not have a safe avenue of retreat. Even in a non stand your ground state, this would probably been ruled justifiable if you believed he reasonably faced an imminent threat of death or severe injury.

Hate to be nitpicky about it but I get tired of people (the media especially) blaming stand your ground laws when the shooting would have been justified even if there was no stand your ground law in effect (ie Travon Martin shooting).
 
Of course I have no issues at all with an armed society, but we have a lot of work to do on the "polite" part of the equation.

The world today is a hectic, manic and often rude and impolite place, if we all shot everyone who does rude uncivil things we would be shooting people daily. I do my part by limiting the time I spend in public mingling with the unwashed masses. If you spend a lot of time in public a confrontation over some issue is likely from time to time even if you try to avoid these events.
What I see here on the surface is a much larger stronger and younger man violently shoving a man to the ground. The shooter was having words with the man's wife in their car but likely not threatening them in any way. Did his actions warrant a violent reaction by the man who was killed? I think from what I see in the video, the shooter after being shoved could likely have retreaded to his car and drove away but he choose to draw and fire. Lots of mistakes and avoidable actions all around by all, shame a man had to die over this.
 
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Could all this have been avoided if the lady in the handicap parking spot had replied, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was handicap parking, moved to one of.the empty spots in the lot, instead of becoming offended. And getting into an argument that escalated into a shooting
 
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S4f said:
Could all this have been avoided if the lady in the handicap parking spot had replied, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was handicap parking, moved to one of.the empty spots in the lot, instead of becoming offended. And getting into an argument that escalated into a shooting
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....or if the shooter said/did nothing to initiate the verbal confrontation, or the man killed did not over react violently.

Living in a world were others don't behave civilly is a part of life now so sadly these type events are bound to happen. Lots of perpetual offenders and perpetually offended blending together.....
 
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I have not read all of the responses, but this Sheriff doesn’t support concealed carry from what I recall he has made some controversial statements about it. It would not suprise me if he is blaming SYG as a political mechanism.
I have a problem with what I can see in the video. It looks like a simple assault to me which doesn’t support the use of deadly force. The shooter also started the conversation which bugs me too.
 
Here I have to admit that parking in handicapped spaces and fire lanes is one of my pet peeves, I've never escalated it to the point that it went to in Florida, but have made eye contact with the offending driver and pointed at the sign, mostly in my younger years, now I realize in the land of the me, it is an exercise in futility
 
Personally I think he should have call him out. Like say, ok dude, I'm going back to my car and get my handgun and then we are going to settle this straight up. Like Randolph Scott. :D

The guy pulled a gun on an unarmed man. I say hang the little pussy.
 
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elirab said:
Reasonable to draw? Absolutely.

Reasonable to pull the trigger? Probably not.
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If it's reasonable to draw, the trigger should be pulled as soon as target is acquired. Don't ever pull a gun you don't intend to use cause you may end up eating it.
 
Interesting case. The guy who didn't mind his own business and confronted the woman parked in the handicapped parking space should have left it alone. He started the confrontation when he could have chosen a different solution to the situation. I hear of cases in the news all the time about a genuine handicapped person being insulted by a stranger because said stranger thinks the alleged handicapped person parked in a designated handicapped space is actually not handicapped when they truly meet the definition of such. That probably isn't the case with this story.

However, if someone is illegally parked in a handicapped zone, or you think they are, call the law. Them being illegally parked in a handicapped zone is not causing any harm to yourself whatsoever. Mind your own business and if you can't resist the urge to get involved, call the law and walk away.

Now, on the flip side...... If you or your loved one is wrongfully or rightfully confronted by a stranger because of a minor parking violation you or your loved one may have committed, it's probably not the best choice to walk right up to that stranger and shove him to the ground with no knowledge of their capability or whether they are armed or not. The deceased in this story, and his family, learned that lesson very quickly.

Hot heads. That's what this story is about. One hot head died and the other will most likely live out his remaining days in prison.
 
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Qball said:
Interesting case. The guy who didn't mind his own business and confronted the woman parked in the handicapped parking space should have left it alone. He started the confrontation when he could have chosen a different solution to the situation. I hear of cases in the news all the time about a genuine handicapped person being insulted by a stranger because said stranger thinks the alleged handicapped person parked in a designated handicapped space is actually not handicapped when they truly meet the definition of such. That probably isn't the case with this story.

However, if someone is illegally parked in a handicapped zone, or you think they are, call the law. Them being illegally parked in a handicapped zone is not causing any harm to yourself whatsoever. Mind your own business and if you can't resist the urge to get involved, call the law and walk away.

Now, on the flip side...... If you or your loved one is wrongfully or rightfully confronted by a stranger because of a minor parking violation you or your loved one may have committed, it's probably not the best choice to walk right up to that stranger and shove him to the ground with no knowledge of their capability or whether they are armed or not. The deceased in this story, and his family, learned that lesson very quickly.

Hot heads. That's what this story is about. One hot head died and the other will most likely live out his remaining days in prison.
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Good points that could possibly have prevented things from ending like they did Dave. In this day and time it's so very likely that tempers will escalate when you confront people about things like parking spaces as the shooter did. Once they escalated he was placed in a situation that forced him to take things up another notch. Whether he was right or wrong really won't matter now that deadly force has been used.

And in my case if my firearm clears the holster after being threatened or assaulted there is a 99% chance that I'll be firing it very quickly to stop the threat. I can also understand and consider that I may be faced with situations that require having my firearm in my hand and ready if a threat is realized.

There are so many variables here to consider in our day to day interactions with total strangers.
 
Call the cops to write them a ticket if they aren’t handicapped. That’s what my wife and I do when we see it at places. Both handicap spots were taken at a restaurant we went to last week. Neither had a hanger or tag, so we told the restaurant folks and my wife notified the PD. No need to confront somebody over this unless it’s just ridiculous. One of the only times I did so was at the grocery store because two Elon college girls blitzed an old guy for a handicap spot when they weren’t.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, the syg law in Florida is worded different than north Carolina law for deadly force. N.C use fear for your life, Florida uses fear of serious bodily injury.
 
My take on it is that the guy was arguing with the girl in the car, the other guy came up pretty quickly and blindsided the guy, shoving him to the ground. I don't know if the guy that got shoved even saw it coming. The shover looks like a large, fit dude, is the guy on the ground arguing with the girl because he is handicapped???
I'm on the ground, I just took a blindsiding, violent shove that put me on the ground, my bell is sort of rung, there is a younger, fitter than me guy standing over me, probably screaming that he is gonna stomp my ass into a mud puddle for disrespecting his baby-mamma who was parked illegally in a handicap spot. I probably would be fearful of great bodily harm, or worse. The guy on the ground started an argument with the girl in the car, the other guy came out of nowhere and violently put himself into the situation.
 
S4f said:
Seems the innocent victim wasn't so innocent.
I find it interesting that none of the news media or at least the ones I saw bothered to mention this.
CBS had the girl friend of the victim on this morning. She stated, this is America I can park anywhere I want.
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Can you imagine the berating that guy took from the woman when he asked her “why she was parked in the handicapped parking spot”.
Then he gets linebackered by a guy much bigger then him, maybe the guy on the ground really was afraid.
 
gunbelt said:
If it's reasonable to draw, the trigger should be pulled as soon as target is acquired. Don't ever pull a gun you don't intend to use cause you may end up eating it.
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And this is why the cook in the other story should have capped the guy knocking out her coworker.
 
Tailhunter said:
And this is why the cook in the other story should have capped the guy knocking out her coworker.
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That cook's life will be far easier after her encounter than this parking space police wannabe's is going to be.
 
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