Valid point. It does support a positive defense though.
Rant concerning seller's requirements on classified ads
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IrishCannon
Fight hard.
I simply require, as a buyer, that if you request a BOS at the moment of the transaction and not on the forum before the fact, I get to kick you in the nuts as hard as I can.
Think about a hypothetical situation. I go out and buy a gun legally using a 4473 and then after some time I decide I don't like it and I put it up for sale. Then when I go to sell it the guy says well I have a CCW that's all you need right I said yeah that's all I need but I'd like to have a copy of it or take a picture of it some way that I would be able to say yes I sold it again to this person in case he goes out does something stupid with it. I don't have anybody has ever had that to happen but still if you sell a gun to a criminal or somebody that turns into a criminal and the police go looking for the gun and they figure out where it came from and they go to the dealer that sold it and it's your name ,Police come to you and say Where is the gun that you bought,? Well I sold it. well they say to who and I don't have any proof of who I sold it to ,So I don't have to go through that problem at all and it's for the person that said they can make up a bill of sale You don't make up a bill of sale with a person's name and an ID number that you don't even know that's not even theirs. That's kinda like falsifying a police report.So when I sell a gun or buy a gun I ask for a bill of sale so that I know where it came from and I have proof of where it came from for the person's name and an address of some sort whether it be a driver's license or a concealed carry permit nobody else will ever be see it. It goes in my safe with all my other papers.. stapled to the original invoice or bill of sale when I purchased it. If I don't agree with sellers rules or regulations that they want to follow I don't even attempt to contact them to buy anything.
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DrPhudd
Joe thinks I'm clever
None of the hypothetical boogy man scenarios I see in this thread have ever happened (in NC)
You are more likely to be harmed by a piece of paper with your personal info on it floating around than by following the law and nothing more.
You are more likely to be harmed by a piece of paper with your personal info on it floating around than by following the law and nothing more.
One thing I have learned is there are some flippers on this page who buy / sell / trade purely for profit.
Yes the “trades must be in my favor? Is a personal favorite of mine as well
But it is there item and they have the right to do whatever, but I often shake my head and don’t even bother sending a PM
Yes the “trades must be in my favor? Is a personal favorite of mine as well
But it is there item and they have the right to do whatever, but I often shake my head and don’t even bother sending a PM
Your little little piece of paper does not prove anything.
Totally setting aside, specially, firearm related liability concerns, but to include buying and selling.
This
And this
With the recent expansion of Uncle Sugar's collection department, paper is your friend, or not.
First the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau tracks your transactions, as a few other may or do also. Research it yourself, ( have to go in depth ) and draw your own conclusion~s.
Somewhat recently Uncle Sugar wanted deposits for Six Hundred, or more, "Officially" Reported to the collectors, unofficially they already know.
So what?
The following pertains to any object ~ thing, ( to include firearms as well as Rubber Dog Poop ) that's bought - sold - traded, to include on line market places.
For the purpose of reporting income many or several on line market places already provide transactions to "Uncle Sugar."
So being a "Smooth Operator" you acquire parts from others to include "Super Smooth
Operator."
Then, you are audited and the collectors determine that you did not report $1,200 , could be any amount.
You say you didn't make $1,200 because you bought parts totaling $1,000, so you only made $200.
And no, you do not have receipts.
So you either include $1,200 as income or you get receipts to prove you only have to answer for $200.
So, you obtained the parts from "Super Smooth Operator," is "Super Smooth Operator" going to supply you with paperwork amounting to $1,000?
Of course it's not unheard of for the collectors to just request ~ demand the identity of your source for parts and grant you your $1,000 for parts and just add $200 extra for unreported income.
Most VIN or titled ~ serialized stuff can be tracked, but obviously random stuff is more difficult.
Just wait til Hi-Volume FFLs are audited. Figure it out, or not.
This
And this
I'm more than sure all the experts will discount the view I'm sharing here, and that's just OK.
With the recent expansion of Uncle Sugar's collection department, paper is your friend, or not.
First the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau tracks your transactions, as a few other may or do also. Research it yourself, ( have to go in depth ) and draw your own conclusion~s.
Somewhat recently Uncle Sugar wanted deposits for Six Hundred, or more, "Officially" Reported to the collectors, unofficially they already know.
So what?
The following pertains to any object ~ thing, ( to include firearms as well as Rubber Dog Poop ) that's bought - sold - traded, to include on line market places.
For the purpose of reporting income many or several on line market places already provide transactions to "Uncle Sugar."
So being a "Smooth Operator" you acquire parts from others to include "Super Smooth
Operator."Then, you are audited and the collectors determine that you did not report $1,200 , could be any amount.
You say you didn't make $1,200 because you bought parts totaling $1,000, so you only made $200.
And no, you do not have receipts.
So you either include $1,200 as income or you get receipts to prove you only have to answer for $200.
So, you obtained the parts from "Super Smooth Operator," is "Super Smooth Operator" going to supply you with paperwork amounting to $1,000?
Of course it's not unheard of for the collectors to just request ~ demand the identity of your source for parts and grant you your $1,000 for parts and just add $200 extra for unreported income.
Most VIN or titled ~ serialized stuff can be tracked, but obviously random stuff is more difficult.
Just wait til Hi-Volume FFLs are audited. Figure it out, or not.
"Welcome to the Machine"
Suppose,Whatever will be, will be
That NC law PewPew article is five years old, how much has changed?
There should be a sticky in the handgun BST with a link to transfer law.
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OP
Post #48
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ChickenHawk
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Maybe bills of sale are encouraged secretly by the IRS so that when their new agents raid you they can get you for back taxes.
I can understand some of that like preferring the buyer to show a CCW permit. That eliminates any chance that you are selling to a criminal that is likely to use the gun for bad purposes.
Folks are going to do what folks do, especially those that have everything figured out, like the prominent example of Al Capone.
secretly, ?
As others have pointed out it's so easy to just come up with a receipt / BOS.
Here's a secret receipt book.
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OP
This one hits close to home and even though the topic is about online transactions, I could easily see someone folding like a cheap suit to intimidation. Guaranteed they would swiftly hand over the information from their security blanket BOS (creating a headache for the purchaser) rather than just saying they sold the firearm legally according to state law and are not required to maintain records.
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Exactly. When your name is the last known purchaser on paper, if that firearm is used in a crime by someone you will be glad you have a copy of that bill of sale to PROVE you are no longer the owner of it.
You don't know anyone online. You have zero obligation to blindly trust someone, especially someone that refuses something as simple as a bill of sale to prove they are now the new owner.
Sellers are not submitting it to the feds. We hold on to them in a safe just in case someone comes knocking to ask about it.
If I ever sell a gun to anyone I will need to see an ID and permit. See them, not copy
Never really gave it a second thought in the past.
I worked at a prison for years. I was at local gun show and ran into a former inmate shopping at the show. He was not uncomfortable whatsoever and talked with me for a few minutes.
Had an employee I took to a gun store I frequent. He attempted to buy a shotgun while we were there.
Check came back no good.
We obviously talked on the way back to work. He was ticked because he couldn’t buy the gun. I’m like get the problem fixed and go back and buy the gun.
He said he can’t and it’s his moms fault. She had him committed several times.
I had a few choice words for him about my reputation at the gun store.
Never really gave it a second thought in the past.
I worked at a prison for years. I was at local gun show and ran into a former inmate shopping at the show. He was not uncomfortable whatsoever and talked with me for a few minutes.
Had an employee I took to a gun store I frequent. He attempted to buy a shotgun while we were there.
Check came back no good.
We obviously talked on the way back to work. He was ticked because he couldn’t buy the gun. I’m like get the problem fixed and go back and buy the gun.
He said he can’t and it’s his moms fault. She had him committed several times.
I had a few choice words for him about my reputation at the gun store.
Same. If you show me a CWP that's all I need to know. No need for bill of sale in that case, even though legally I don't have to do one of those either. That is just to cover my ass in the future if it ends up in the wrong hands down the line.
The CWP can be expired for all I care. I just want to see that you at least had one before. Highly unlikely you got a carry permit and then became a criminal.
I don't take a photo of the thing. Just verify that it is you and then here's your new firearm, treat it well.
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So what you’re saying is that you have a strong opinion, but it’s fluid. Also that you feel that doing more than the law requires protects you down the road, but breaking the law is fine.
Chuckman
Senior Member
People can ask for whatever they want. If it's more than what the law requires, I just "lol" and move on. I'm certainly not going to make it harder to buy something.
If you're one of these people who ask for more than what the law requires, then doom on you.
If you're one of these people who ask for more than what the law requires, then doom on you.
not at all, but nice attempt to build a strawman. you'll get it some day.
And we wonder why the country is going down the crapper.
We need more requirements, the laws are just not enough. Maybe they will pass a few extra to make these “individuals” happy and allow them to feel safe.
How will we ever feel safe without intervention?
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I thought he'd be here at least until Tuesday.
fieldgrade
waiting...
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good evening--I am kinda new to this site so just ran across your above post--- 100% agree with all that you said--- are you available in the fall of 2024 for a new career ????????
#4 seems like an obviously good thing, IMO.
One of the biggest reasons that our 2A rights are under constant attack is because bad people do bad things with guns and that makes good people angry. Personally, I don't want to sell a gun to a bad guy, because he is going to do things that will result in further threats to my 2A rights. I don't have the resources to run a background check ... but requiring a pistol purchase permit or a CCW for the sale indicates that the buyer was able to pass a background check and is therefore much less likely to be a bad guy. He's certainly not a felon, most likely has no outstanding warrants and doesn't have a (documented) history of violence or mental illness.
To be honest, I am little surprised this isn't being shouted from the hilltops in these circles. What am I missing?
One of the biggest reasons that our 2A rights are under constant attack is because bad people do bad things with guns and that makes good people angry. Personally, I don't want to sell a gun to a bad guy, because he is going to do things that will result in further threats to my 2A rights. I don't have the resources to run a background check ... but requiring a pistol purchase permit or a CCW for the sale indicates that the buyer was able to pass a background check and is therefore much less likely to be a bad guy. He's certainly not a felon, most likely has no outstanding warrants and doesn't have a (documented) history of violence or mental illness.
To be honest, I am little surprised this isn't being shouted from the hilltops in these circles. What am I missing?
Everything is negotiable. I have done a number of deals with people here who listed BOS as a requirement. I told them I was willing t pay their price (I was) but BOS was non negotiable deal killer. Every one of them just said "ok" and the deal went smooth as silk. Just ask. Many times they make this requirement not from being a prick, but just b/c someone told them to. The worst they can say is "no"
Fear and loathing of the intrusive fed. My analysis, anyway
. People are certainly able to put whatever stipulations they wish on firearms transfer. It is their weapon to do with as they see fit, and if they wish to demand 15 years of credit reports, blood analysis, notarized copies of sheriff recommendations, and a letter from a pastor... well.. good luck to em.I will not sell to anyone who "seems" squirrely and mentally unstable, but I am not going to demand that said person get some certification that they are mentally fit (this is what demanding a ccw for a long gun transfer does...as ccw does a mental health background check).
If you wanna do that before you transfer a shotgun or rifle, this is certainly your privilege. You just won't be selling me anything.
BTW, this topic has been ridden so hard and long and exhaustively here on this forum that the old timers are amazed the poor horse is still staggering about. Most of us are pretty set in our opinions. Not to say that we don't enjoy abusing a noobie
You will find a healthy coterie here who agree in principle with you. Others of us have no principles, so we are harder to convince.