Sig Sauer Addresses the P320 Issues

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Slimer

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tl;dr IT'S NOT OUR FAULT, IT'S THE HOLSTER'S FAULT! REEEEEEEEEEEE! šŸ˜†

NEWINGTON, N.H., (September 7, 2023) ā€“ SIG SAUER is reminding consumers about the risks associated with the use of light-bearing holsters, which have been involved in a number of alleged unintentional discharge incidents. Due to the large openings in these holster designs around the trigger (necessary for accommodating the bezels of attached weapon lights), fingers or foreign objects may be able to enter these holsters and contact the trigger. This vulnerability may be exacerbated by the use of a light-bearing holster without a compatible weapon light attached.

Placement of a firearm in a holster does not relieve the user from the requirements of proper trigger discipline, and safe firearms handling practices.

Selection of a proper holster is the responsibility of the user and special care must be taken to ensure a chosen holster complements safe handling practices (including adequate trigger protection) and other philosophy of use considerations. Holster manufacturers routinely publish warnings about the vulnerabilities of light-bearing holsters, including warnings printed directly in the manuals for these products, and stand-alone bulletins. Examples are reproduced below. If you choose to use a light-bearing holster with your firearm, you should review these warnings closely and ensure the additional risks are acceptable given your intended use.

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/safety-bulletin-light-bearing-holsters-for-pistols
 
Jlwilliams said:
That's ridiculous. Other guns aren't having the same problem in those holsters.
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other guns also donā€™t have 1) absurdly short trigger pull, 2) fully tensioned striker and 3) lack of a trigger dingus/blade/hinge mechanism. The P320 checks all those boxes, so even if itā€™s mechanically safe it may not be safe when the slightest human error is introduced.
 
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Why doesnā€™t more departments use the safety version of the p320? Wouldnā€™t a safety on the pistol like the M17-M18 solve all this sillinessā€¦. Iā€™ve been a Glock guy for years and have several ones now but the ease of the the p320 tigger pull makes me a better shooter and with the safety on my M18 itā€™s no disadvantage on using it.
 
THE PUNISHER said:
Why doesnā€™t more departments use the safety version of the p320? Wouldnā€™t a safety on the pistol like the M17-M18 solve all this sillinessā€¦. Iā€™ve been a Glock guy for years and have several ones now but the ease of the the p320 tigger pull makes me a better shooter and with the safety on my M18 itā€™s no disadvantage on using it.
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while I (thankfully) have zero combat experience, Iā€™ve heard enough persuasive arguments for why a mechanical disabling device (aka thumb safety) is a liability. then once I started shooting on a timer and under stress, this argument became obvious. for me a thumb safety is a hard stop for a defensive pistol. Would proficient LEOs be able to train to the same level with another obstacle (thumb safety)? Probably. But what about the other 90% of LEOs who are barely proficient with a firearm? When their life is threatened will they sweep off that disabling switch?

the biggest scam about thumb switches was whoever called them a ā€œsafetyā€. this term created legitimacy where it may or may not exist. if off-switches are enhancing some level of safety then perhaps thereā€™s a training problem.

Todd Louis Green wrote at length about how trigger travel distance is a safety barrier to human error and even negligence. Ernest Langdon has also covered the topic. Theyā€™ve noted that trigger weight probably isnā€™t so meaningful as during stress the brain is poor at perceiving muscle tension or squeezing but can still perceive the distance a digit has moved. I accept their argument as doctrine. In all the haste to ā€œgo fastā€ and improve performance, the shooting world has unknowingly made some trade offs with perhaps the P320 as a shining example.
 
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92G said:
while I (thankfully) have zero combat experience, Iā€™ve heard enough persuasive arguments for why a mechanical disabling device (aka thumb safety) is a liability. then once I started shooting on a timer and under stress, this argument became obvious. for me a thumb safety is a hard stop for a defensive pistol. Would proficient LEOs be able to train to the same level with another obstacle (thumb safety)? Probably. But what about the other 90% of LEOs who are barely proficient with a firearm? When their life is threatened will they sweep off that disabling switch?

the biggest scam about thumb switches was whoever called them a ā€œsafetyā€. this term created legitimacy where it may or may not exist. if off-switches are enhancing some level of safety then perhaps thereā€™s a training problem.

Todd Louis Green wrote at length about how trigger travel distance is a safety barrier to human error and even negligence. Ernest Langdon has also covered the topic. Theyā€™ve noted that trigger weight probably isnā€™t so meaningful as during stress the brain is poor at perceiving muscle tension or squeezing but can still perceive the distance a digit has moved. I accept their argument as doctrine. In all the haste to ā€œgo fastā€ and improve performance, the shooting world has unknowingly made some trade offs with perhaps the P320 as a shining example.
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Thatā€™s why you train with what you have, like me a Glock fan boy for at least 30 years I still learn to use it (a manual safety)and very quickly learned to use it properlyā€¦1911 guys have been using one since the beginning of time so itā€™s not like something new or rocket science. Itā€™s poor training or laziness on the part of people that donā€™t train or slow learnersā€¦
 
I'm happy to report that I now have what must be close to 10,000 rounds through various Sigs, a majority of which are P320s - Tacops, WCP320, and Legions. A lot of those rounds are in IDPA competitions, drawing and reloading on the clock. I have yet to have an ND, and the gun responds when I pull the trigger. I only use proper holsters, that came with the Sigs or made by reputable companies, with retention but without release buttons or other such, and I make sure nothing goes into the holster with the gun (like shirttails and foreign objects). When I have an ND that I am sure was not my fault, or even was not contributed to by me or outside agency, I will post here and join the chorus of Sig Skeptics.

Until then, I remain in the camp of believing guns don't go off on their own. I am also a believer that LEOs have extraordinary incentive to blame the guns for NDs, and keep the blame off themselves.

Flame away.
 
dmarbell said:
I'm happy to report that I now have what must be close to 10,000 rounds through various Sigs, a majority of which are P320s - Tacops, WCP320, and Legions. A lot of those rounds are in IDPA competitions, drawing and reloading on the clock. I have yet to have an ND, and the gun responds when I pull the trigger. I only use proper holsters, that came with the Sigs or made by reputable companies, with retention but without release buttons or other such, and I make sure nothing goes into the holster with the gun (like shirttails and foreign objects). When I have an ND that I am sure was not my fault, or even was not contributed to by me or outside agency, I will post here and join the chorus of Sig Skeptics.

Until then, I remain in the camp of believing guns don't go off on their own. I am also a believer that LEOs have extraordinary incentive to blame the guns for NDs, and keep the blame off themselves.

Flame away.
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Out of the tens of thousands of P320s produced, the relatively few unintended discharges have been predominantly by one small subset of users.

What is the common denominator? Are they all with Safariland holsters?
 
1075tech said:
Out of the tens of thousands of P320s produced, the relatively few unintended discharges have been predominantly by one small subset of users.

What is the common denominator? Are they all with Safariland holsters?
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www.inquirer.com

What happened when a SEPTA officerā€™s handgun spontaneously fired in Phillyā€™s Suburban Station in 2019

Documents reveal new details of an incident that prompted SEPTA to stop using the Sig Sauer P320 handgun.
www.inquirer.com www.inquirer.com

Since 2017, Sig has faced at least 13 lawsuits contending a P320 owner was shot and injured ā€” in one case, fatally ā€” when the gun misfired. Six of those suits were brought by people serving in law enforcement
As of 2021, only about half of the lawsuits have been from LEO's. Don't know what the numbers are now. I doubt all of those were carrying Safariland light bearing holsters.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
But only in Sig holsters?
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Not just Sig holsters... watched a DOC employee put a loaded M&P into a holster that they had just put a set of keys in and were holding the bottom of the holster with their hand.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
I seem to remember LEO's have a problem with glock's back in the 90's before the widespread use of the internet.
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Right, but they (glocks) don't seem to be having that problem now -- but the p320 does.

Going from a DA revolver to glock is a radical change, so makes sense that training and discipline took time to catch up. But going from a glock to a p320 is not a massive shift. That suggests the problem is with the p320.
 
92G said:
But what about the other 90% of LEOs who are barely proficient with a firearm? When their life is threatened will they sweep off that disabling switch?
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One should be familiar with the tools of their trade. I'd have no more sympathy for a cop that doesn't know how to work their duty gun than I would for an electrician who doesn't understand how the human body can complete a circuit.

AR10ShooterinNC said:
I seem to remember LEO's have a problem with glock's back in the 90's before the widespread use of the internet.
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wasn't it a year or two ago that an agency returned all their glocks because nearly 90% fired low and left, and the other 10% fired low and right?
 
Heavily.censored said:
Smells like a "finger in the Wendy's chili" situation. Only takes one lawsuit settlement for people to start lining up to get paid for their mistakes.

"Well, I shot myself... might as well get a new truck from it..."
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Maybe there's nothing wrong with the gun and the trigger pull is just too light and short?
 
alpharius said:
Maybe there's nothing wrong with the gun and the trigger pull is just too light and short?
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I'd agree it's definitely skirting the line, but at 4lbs-5.5lbs I'd say we are within safe realm.. if a couple pounds were shaved off I wouldn't carry it, but might still use as a range toy. Glock performance trigger is at like 3.5 and people still carry that, and it's also a flat face fully sprung striker....

Wish it had a bladed trigger, but let's be honest- if something gets in enough to pull the trigger back, it's probably depressing the blade too. Try pulling your trigger "from the side", damn near impossible... you really need to be square up on it.

End of rant.
 
Heavily.censored said:
I'd agree it's definitely skirting the line, but at 4lbs-5.5lbs I'd say we are within safe realm.. if a couple pounds were shaved off I wouldn't carry it, but might still use as a range toy. Glock performance trigger is at like 3.5 and people still carry that, and it's also a flat face fully sprung striker....

Wish it had a bladed trigger, but let's be honest- if something gets in enough to pull the trigger back, it's probably depressing the blade too. Try pulling your trigger "from the side", damn near impossible... you really need to be square up on it.

End of rant.
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Can't disagree too much. But still, when you are arming a whole bunch of police recruits, gotta make it good for the least common denominator.

I only remember holding/dry firing a p320 one time. Seemed pretty light and short. Slightly more so than any glock I've fired. But not sure what I was holding, could have been something modified.

Then, as has been pointed out in this thread already, this phenomena doesn't seem to be happening to glocks right now. So something must be different about the p320.
 
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Was playing around with a Werkz light bearing holster and dude you can legit stick your finger in the side and pull the trigger with it fully holstered.

Leo's carry TLR1HL and X300... just saying.
 
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Between Sig essentially ignoring this issue, and the Legion marketing - Iā€™ve completely written off Sig for future purchases.

I usually err on the side of operator error - but the reports of UD just keep adding up. The report of the USPSA dude had several witnesses, not that theyā€™re infallible. But itā€™s enough that I would have that in the back of my mind with having a holstered 320. And ainā€™t a snowballs chance in hell Iā€™d ever appendix carry one.

Side rant: The whole ā€œbrotherhoodā€ of Legion trash is just too cringe. I did like the 320 Axg Pro that I tried, but the Canik trigger felt better for half the price. Iā€™m just not sure I can swallow the aesthetics of the Canik.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
Operator error...only seems to happen to LEO
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Could be, but there is no fudging way I would intentionally buy a P320 when there are sooooo many good alternatives in the striker-fired world (to include the P365 to Sig's credit) that don't have reputations to go bang when the trigger isn't pulled.

Glock leg will be mentioned, but the mechanics of a Glock make it a ridiculously safe handgun with no true safety update since 1992 with the black to silver FCG update.
 
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