cubrock
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Unfortunately most people "writing" about it repeat oft quoted myths....i.e. "1940's pressure.....whatever that is..."I’m about to jump into the M1 game I think. This month’s handloader magazine was all about loading for the Garand and they said if you’re not planning on loading to 1940s pressure that replacing the gas port plug can be swapped out.
It has an exceptionally accurate Varget load for 150gr bullets (48gr, 2700fps) that looked good.
I know less than nothing about the Garand so it’s all new to me
Unfortunately most people "writing" about it repeat oft quoted myths....i.e. "1940's pressure.....whatever that is..."
YES you CAN make some abominable handload that isn't safe for it...probably not safe for any other semi as well...
My test was to see if commercial ammo was the problem it has been claimed to be for decades......I think I've got that one debunked.
Thanks again @cubrock for the assist....the M1 ball really helped.... I also plan on more videos range testing it and the 1940 Match ammo as well.
It’s likely referring to safe chamber pressures or port pressures. It wasn’t clear
I wasn’t calling anything you were doing into question, just commenting about what was put in the most recent handloader magazine about loading for the M1.
Garand was not even designed to use the 30-06 to begin with
Correct. The M1 rifle was initially developed using the .276 Pederson cartridge but the design was later changed to .30-06. Also note that in the original .276 caliber, the en-bloc held 10 rounds.
Another similar video:Unfortunately most people "writing" about it repeat oft quoted myths....i.e. "1940's pressure.....whatever that is..."
YES you CAN make some abominable handload that isn't safe for it...probably not safe for any other semi as well...
My test was to see if commercial ammo was the problem it has been claimed to be for decades......I think I've got that one debunked.
Thanks again @cubrock for the assist....the M1 ball really helped.... I also plan on more videos range testing it and the 1940 Match ammo as well.
Another similar video:
Ok, I will probably be told, "you idiot." I'm not a gunsmith, not an expert, I don't even reload. But here's what I gleaned from this:Yeah that's the video with lots of incorrect info... which is what made me do my video.
Ok, I will probably be told, "you idiot." I'm not a gunsmith, not an expert, I don't even reload. But here's what I gleaned from this:
1.) The maximum op rod speeds, according to Springfield Armory, is 26fps(correct me if wrong, didn't you mention that in the video?).
2.) Almost all of the commercial loads went over that limit
3.) Only one batch of surplus went over, most went substantially below
4.) Not in the video, but as I understand it, op rods are fragile, many are 80+ years old and were never changed out, and metallurgy was not the best in those days.
You posted some interesting material, but where does this video show that shooting commerical ammo is a good idea in a Garand? I mean, if anything, I would think this video proves it is not necessarily a good idea. The majority of the commercial ammo exceeds the maximum tolerances of the gun, the majority of surplus is well below maximum tolerances, and I don't think people are expecting guns to blow up, but instead expect op rods to wear out prematurely and break.
Again, I'm the opposite of an expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also the rods can be bent during disassembly as well.Op rods don't break from wrong pressure curve ammo but they definitely will bend. I have seen more than one M1 rifle that had functioning issues that was resulting from a bent op rod.
M1 safe ammunition exists outside of surplus. Buy it and keep shooting.
Did you watch the video?I trashed an op rod on my first Garand with a handload using IMR 4350 powder. It was not a max load and did not have velocity higher than most factory loads. I had shot lots of rounds of the same velocity using IMR 4064 with no problems at all. I am wary of slow burning powder in a gas autoloader. I do not know what powder commercial rounds use and do not feel comfortable using them in any of my Garands unless they specify that they are designed to be shot in Garands.
Makes sense, the idea that military guns are overbuilt, and that the figures they give is very conservative makes a lot of sense. I'd never thought of the op-rod issue in terms of lubrication, makes a good deal of sense when seen in that light, thanks.First off I'd like to thank you for asking these questions...that means you actually watched the video AND you looked at the data...kudos..
second you are the ONLY person who has done this in the week its been up (all over other forums as well)..I either get people that agree with the video or those who disagree with it without even watching it..
1. That is correct...I do not have the reason why/how they came to that conclusion...or was it a test of a certain ammunition... I'm trying to get the original document to see if there is any more info in it.
2. Also true...however we don't know if it was 26.0fps or 26.6fps or what according to SA. 26.0 to 27.0fps is an increase of 3.8% If we assume that all 26.x numbers are "safe" then the 4 commercial loads over that can be as well since it's a 3% increase.
3. Again also true...however those that were on the "high" are also considered garand safe...so we must take those numbers at face value. Otherwise CMP would be in trouble for selling "hot" HXP by the millions for 15 years....
4. Oprods aren't as fragile in real life as they are portrayed on the net...the 1942 oprods are still going on strong as well as the late 60's rods.. we even have oprod rebuild services if needed. The "main" thing that damages oprods is lack of / improper lubrication... i.e. "grease". If you run your garand "dry" with oil only etc...then you have a problem. I will be doing another video shortly to address THIS issue. But lets just say that a properly greased and in spec garand shouldn't have any trouble using ammo off the shelf...the biggest issue is owners who don't take the time to inspect it (easy to do) and then properly lube it (also easy to do).. Oprods get "bent" in the handle area....where it cams on the bolt lug down towards the tube... the damage happens when the gun is "grease free" and then you start shoving on it (shooting).. the rod is trying to unlock and retract the bolt but since everything is "dry" friction is increased substantially.... the friction is what causes the handle to get "tweaked" and not track properly. greased....the friction is MUCH lower and no damage occurs.
Jim Thompson who wrote the shooters guide to the Garand... (his words via email with me
"Best to read it in the book. I had a lot of BROWNING 220-grain round nose, and was attempting to test the old malarkey about the M1 having big "issues" with heavy bullets. I'd somehow acquired a rather ugly, "remilitarized" (cut up and welded back together) operating rod, pitted and badly finished, and I figured i'd see how many rounds it would take to bend it. Heavily greased (I grease my rifles very heavily), all I was doing was hitting the 200-yard small gong at Angeles ( LA COUNTY ) range and beating hell out of my shoulder. I then stripped the rifle, used solvent to remove the lubricants, fired the last few rounds and the rod bent so badly it took major effort to get it off the rifle/out of the stock.
I believe the original stock of ammo, purchased at a now-defunct store in LA on closeout, was 700 rounds. I reached 690 or 691, utterly worn out, when I de-greased the rifle. With no grease the rod had bent and showed VISIBLE cracks, oddly not in the reweld area. I gave the remaining rounds to a spectator firing a light hunting rifle. I think I had two left. They must've beaten his shoulder up BADLY in that little thing.
I left the rod in the dumpster and slipped on a better one."
Also a few more points...that weren't covered in the video.. these tests were fairly controlled... i.e. 70deg... etc. One thing shooters don't consider is that these rifles have been used in combat in temperatures above 100deg...that temp alone has the ability to increase pressures across the board by 10% or more...and these rifles all handled it with no trouble. So that should show there is still plenty of safety margin built into them.
So far in my 30 years of shooting these I have not seen a "broken" oprod... I've seen people take screwdrivers to the handle trying to pry it out instead of using the dismount notch...then they blame the ammo bent their rod...no ...you did with that screwdriver you idjit!
I hope this reply helps...
I'll just touch on that last comment....Makes sense, the idea that military guns are overbuilt, and that the figures they give is very conservative makes a lot of sense. I'd never thought of the op-rod issue in terms of lubrication, makes a good deal of sense when seen in that light, thanks.
At lunch so I'll be short.@Jeremy2171 - you referenced Boyles law and its relation between pressure and velocity during 9:36 to 9:44 of the video. Can you provide the exact relationship you used (equation)?
In Boyles law, temperature and mass are constant, volume and pressure are inversely related, and I'm trying to figure out how you brought velocity into the equation.
Did you watch the video?
Did you also download the spreadsheet with all the data showing commercial ammo with ~ the same bolt speed as milsurp?I did.
pretty much yes bolt speed is indicative of the "port pressure". Remember..the bullet has left the muzzle BEFORE the oprod starts to move...so the oprod is moved by the amount of gas the enters the cylinder...and exerts itself against the oprod....as the oprod starts to act upon that impulse...the bullet is out the bore and gas pressure immediately decreases...I took your word for it when you basically summarized the results. I have no doubt that your results are accurate. I wonder whether your data tell the whole story.
I do know what happened to me when I tried some slow burning powder. Is bolt speed the only factor to consider? Could the timing and duration of the acceleration to that bolt speed also be a factor that needs to be examined?
^^ I had some M72 173gr National Match ammo from 1968 that I gave to a friend...new in box. 2640fps using 48gr of IMR4895
It’s what they were shooting at Camp Perry at the time I believe
It needs noting that H4895 and IMR 4895 are not identical
Are you going to use any alternate methods to double check the FPS that the bolt is moving?pretty much yes bolt speed is indicative of the "port pressure". Remember..the bullet has left the muzzle BEFORE the oprod starts to move...so the oprod is moved by the amount of gas the enters the cylinder...and exerts itself against the oprod....as the oprod starts to act upon that impulse...the bullet is out the bore and gas pressure immediately decreases...
I'm going to hazard a guess...your rifle may not have been properly lubed with grease...that extra friction added resistance to the oprod and the only place it can really bend is the handle area where it must cam the bolt open... if thats all dry then the weakest link IS the oprod....
My next video (soon) will actually test THAT theory in checking bolt speed in my rifle PROPERLY greased and then completely degreased and bone dry... if it's a big a change as I "think" it is...then I'm going to say the problem all along is lack of proper lubrication...
On a side note...I swapped in a worn oprod spring at the end of my testing...it was 18.9" (min is 19") and fired more HXP....bolt speed increased approximately 10%....
So NOW we have no LUBE and a WEAK spring.....I don't think either one alone is a good thing...combined it may be worse... tests will see....
Are you going to use any alternate methods to double check the FPS that the bolt is moving?
Something like a digital speed tester, or measuring measuring the number of frames to move to the rear, in comparison to the length of the bolt travel and the Frames/second of the film?
Yep I specifically loaded that to see what 4350 what do behind a 150grn.The 2nd load on the spreadsheet, using 4350, is rather stout even with 150gr bullet.
I got Silver at Butner this year using 52gr 4350 and 168smk... My m1903 load I grabbed by accident lol
All excellent points...Seen More issues with increased throat erosion with some of those hot loads in a garand than bent op rods. But that is something that rings true with most older rifles, not just a garand. Seen it 22lr totally destroy an old revolver that ran for decades on standard velocity.
Also nobody properly lubes their guns anymore it seems. I can't count the number of times I deal with "broke" guns that work perfectly fine with lube. Or the amount of times I was told I was going to break their gun, or get them killed cause I oiled it.
Seen More issues with increased throat erosion with some of those hot loads in a garand than bent op rods. But that is something that rings true with most older rifles, not just a garand. Seen it 22lr totally destroy an old revolver that ran for decades on standard velocity.
Also nobody properly lubes their guns anymore it seems. I can't count the number of times I deal with "broke" guns that work perfectly fine with lube. Or the amount of times I was told I was going to break their gun, or get them killed cause I oiled it.
In their defense, maybe they thought you clean guns the Swiss way, and leave grease in the barrel/chamber. Then again, it'd be their own fault for not cleaning the bore out before shooting it.Seen More issues with increased throat erosion with some of those hot loads in a garand than bent op rods. But that is something that rings true with most older rifles, not just a garand. Seen it 22lr totally destroy an old revolver that ran for decades on standard velocity.
Also nobody properly lubes their guns anymore it seems. I can't count the number of times I deal with "broke" guns that work perfectly fine with lube. Or the amount of times I was told I was going to break their gun, or get them killed cause I oiled it.