US Marshal's Service...big 'oopsie'

Matt.Cross said:
Nothing to contest on my part concerning that, my point was to the rather fickle and irrational nature of the interpretation of the Constitution as concerns warranted searches vs. warrantless 'visits'.
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Can't disagree about some apparently odd distinctions related to the 4th Amendment. A source I use frequently to try to better understand Constitutional differences is the Congressional Research Office's 2,830-page Analysis and Interpretation of the Constitution, and in this case the 92-page chapter on the 4th Amendment.
 
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PATRICK D MASSEY said:
Ah. See there's a doughnut joke to be made there for sure. Next what the murderer is young and black bc fat white guys don't murder. They just the lazy cop that instead of stay in shape for their job which can include the chasing of suspect ah F the PT today we got the helicopter

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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It's true. After 60 hour workweeks, working overnights - everybody is just dying to leave their family even more to go to the gym on their own time and dime. All my friends volunteer their spare time to do things for their job for free!
 
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Dan0311 said:
If you're keeping up, I acknowledged their garb to be horrible for their mission. But you didn't answer the question. Someone kills your loved one and a tip says he's in a house - what should the police do? Wait outside? For how long? How long will that last without the surveillance being "made" - 30 seconds? So the guy doesn't come out. How long do the police wait? "Sorry Mr. NKD, we waited 12 hours and your family member's murderer never came out - so we went home."
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Well, maybe making is painfully OBVIOUS that they're the police would be a d*mn good start in what they should do. Looking like hooded jackboots with guns not just at the ready, but out and actually sweeping while looking like hooded goons does not strike me as professional. Nor smart.

If any of us had seen some guys in our yard, armed to the teeth, approaching doors/windows/other places while sweeping the house with firearms, not in any kind of uniform, and wearing masks like these guys, I daresay many of us would have been on high alert right away and preparing for the worse. Not saying "open fire immediately", but moving our families to better safety, calling 911, arming ourselves, etc.

The ONLY thing I saw in this that made me think "law enforcement" was the initial camera angle where the guy on the front porch was walking up and his shield said "POLICE US MARSHAL" And you know what that idiot did? He DELIBERATELY BLOCKED THE CAMERA VIEW before he knocked, and didn't even identify himself as law enforcement until his second knock.

They CLEARLY were trying to put forth only a token gesture at identifying themselves as law enforcement. Otherwise they ALL would have been clearly identifiable as such and the nitwit on the porch wouldn't have blocked the camera view before knocking, and would not have waited until the second knocking to identify himself as such.

"Oh, if the bad guy had KNOWN we were law enforcement, he would have run!"

Well, guess what, jackboot? If he KNEW a bunch of armed guys were approaching the house in the FIRST place he would have either run or upped the ante then, right? What difference would knowing whether or not the guys with the guns were LEO or not?

If these guys REALLY thought their bad guy was there, then why weren't they prepared to enter? You know...like with a warrant?

"Oh, they're just going to ask some questions."

WITH THEIR GUNS OUT AND SWEEPING? (To be fair, I only saw the one guy in back doing this...the other guy in back didn't have a firearm in hand. And the guy in front, approaching behind a shield, I couldn't see either.)

Their bad guy could have been inside the house all along, either alone, with accomplices, or with hostages. And guess what? This wouldn't have been any different if someone had actually been home and answered the door. The bad guy could have still been there.

And if they're not prepared to enter...then they can sit outside that house until the sun swells into a red giant for all I care...or get a warrant and do a proper search. How long do the police wait? Well, if there isn't a crime in progress, they can wait until the cows come home.

And to top is all off...these nitwits hadn't done their research on the residence, either.


I get it...cops of all stripes are human. But I'm tired of people making excuses for p*ss-poor behavior.
 
gc70 said:
Not saying it's good or bad, but unless your property is posted, police can roam around on your property like anyone else.
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To be fair, the police can roam around your property, posted or not, so long as they have just cause to do so. That can take many forms.

I don't mind that, per se.

It's when there are stupid tactics, behaviors, attitudes, and whatever other negative things we can think of going on.
 
gc70 said:
In North Carolina, trespassing is as follows:

Wandering around on your deck is probably not trespassing if your deck does not have a gate and roof or if the deck (or the property it is on) is not posted.
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So this is saying that you can only be trespassing if you go into a structure? There has to be something missing here.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Well, maybe making is painfully OBVIOUS that they're the police would be a d*mn good start in what they should do. Looking like hooded jackboots with guns not just at the ready, but out and actually sweeping while looking like hooded goons does not strike me as professional. Nor smart.

If any of us had seen some guys in our yard, armed to the teeth, approaching doors/windows/other places while sweeping the house with firearms, not in any kind of uniform, and wearing masks like these guys, I daresay many of us would have been on high alert right away and preparing for the worse. Not saying "open fire immediately", but moving our families to better safety, calling 911, arming ourselves, etc.

The ONLY thing I saw in this that made me think "law enforcement" was the initial camera angle where the guy on the front porch was walking up and his shield said "POLICE US MARSHAL" And you know what that idiot did? He DELIBERATELY BLOCKED THE CAMERA VIEW before he knocked, and didn't even identify himself as law enforcement until his second knock.

They CLEARLY were trying to put forth only a token gesture at identifying themselves as law enforcement. Otherwise they ALL would have been clearly identifiable as such and the nitwit on the porch wouldn't have blocked the camera view before knocking, and would not have waited until the second knocking to identify himself as such.

"Oh, if the bad guy had KNOWN we were law enforcement, he would have run!"

Well, guess what, jackboot? If he KNEW a bunch of armed guys were approaching the house in the FIRST place he would have either run or upped the ante then, right? What difference would knowing whether or not the guys with the guns were LEO or not?

If these guys REALLY thought their bad guy was there, then why weren't they prepared to enter? You know...like with a warrant?

"Oh, they're just going to ask some questions."

WITH THEIR GUNS OUT AND SWEEPING? (To be fair, I only saw the one guy in back doing this...the other guy in back didn't have a firearm in hand. And the guy in front, approaching behind a shield, I couldn't see either.)

Their bad guy could have been inside the house all along, either alone, with accomplices, or with hostages. And guess what? This wouldn't have been any different if someone had actually been home and answered the door. The bad guy could have still been there.

And if they're not prepared to enter...then they can sit outside that house until the sun swells into a red giant for all I care...or get a warrant and do a proper search. How long do the police wait? Well, if there isn't a crime in progress, they can wait until the cows come home.

And to top is all off...these nitwits hadn't done their research on the residence, either.


I get it...cops of all stripes are human. But I'm tired of people making excuses for p*ss-poor behavior.
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- Again, I 100% agree with their poor choice of "uniform" or lack thereof. I've posted that several times. People have got off scott-free after shooting at police entry teams who failed to properly ID themselves. A friend was killed by friendly fire by another agency for the same thing.
- The warrant thing has been explained several times; you can't get a warrant on an anonymous and unverified telephonic tip. It does not appear that they had any intention of making entry (or they would have).
- If you're looking for a murder suspect and you're 5 feet from a window you can't see into - use that tactics that you want.
- True, bad guy could have been there all the time. They got a lead, they did as much as legally possible and left.
- Waiting on a house from an anonymous tip "until the cows come home" is unrealistic in any jurisdiction I've worked or trained with across the country.
- You have ZERO knowledge on what research they did. The Murderers aunt Millie might live there now.
 
Good thread - learned something... several things in fact. @Dan0311 thanks for playing along and answering our questions. My takaway from this thread has been: LEO has a job to do, Property owners have a job to do, and there will be times that those are in opposition. Can't be helped but doesn't have to end up on the news.
 
Matt.Cross said:
You gotta get smart and do some undercover work, you can outright commit crimes if needs must, and the badge makes it all good. It all falls under the 'cops do it every day so it's all good' clause of the Constitution.
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Ignorance. What crimes were committed for you write such a thing?
 
gc70 said:
Not saying it's good or bad, but unless your property is posted, police can roam around on your property like anyone else.
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I don’t believe that this is correct, that you’re mixing up trespassing as relates to citizens and as relates to a LEO in performance of their official duties. There are limits to what a LEO can do while working, but they have a ton of flexibility vs citizens.

I’m pretty unconcerned about law enforcement. I answer the door unarmed, roll down my window at traffic stops, have even offered them donuts at a license check, fact is they have a job that I don’t want to do but that needs to be done, and I respect that. But back on topic, I see those guys through a window and I’m going to an interior room with a rifle and calling 911. I can’t image a scenario where I initiate hostilities with multiple armed folks in my yard, heck it’s crap tactics to open a fight on 2 or more fronts.
 
Here's a prime example of where things go horribly wrong when the police choose to engage with poor tactics.

www.wptv.com

Alteria Woods: Man charged for murder of woman during SWAT raid found not guilty; mother supports jury’s decision

An Indian River County man on trial in connection with a deadly 2017 SWAT raid in Gifford was found not guilty of five of the six charges Friday.
www.wptv.com www.wptv.com

Fortunately, this guy didn't get hung out to dry for the results of poor research and poor tactics.


Yes, it's a dangerous job...more so at some times than others. But guess what? When you sign up for that job, you accept that risk. You also accept the responsibility for actively minimizing the risks involved for everybody, for each and every scenario where law enforcement is called to perform such activities as serve papers, conduct searches, arrest people, etc. If you're at the wrong house attempting to serve a no-knock warrant, as an example,...the the key word here is WRONG. If you're chucking a flash-bang into a house/room, then you are responsible for anything that your own stupidity may have caused with respect to injuries...like the time a flash-bang ended up in the portable crib of 19 month old Bounkham Phonesavanh (which was the result of a no-knock at the wrong address).

And yes...I realize mistakes will happen, tragic though they may be.

But what I DON'T see is a whole lot of owning up to those mistakes.
 
Dan0311 said:
I'm not too sure what you mean. They are allowed to surround the house and knock on a door. This is not a search as far as Constitutional law goes.
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I am going to (legally) argue the "allowed to surround the house" being coupled with "knocking on the door" when placed in the context of not being a search, i.e. there is no warrant or "you're just wanting to have a conversation" as it is frequently put. The basis of my argument against this is that in NC they recognize the legal concept of curtilage which means the area immediately surrounding your residence, typically including out buildings as being protected space in terms of self defense. If it is part of the area covered under castle doctrine, then it is obviously considered private space. Areas like the sides of the house, especially if concealed by a fence, back yards, back doors porches, etc fall into this area called curtilage.

Consequently, if you're there for a knock on the door conversation without some other standing, then by definition you would have not standing to enter the curtilage areas.

Edit to add as I am behind in the thread, your statement "these are the dangers of policework. Chasing shooting or stabbing suspects in the South Bronx on fire escapes, etc, in plainclothes - or should we just have said, wow, he made it to someone's backyard or a fire escape - he's home free, shouldn't chase him there?" This is an example of what I mean by other cause or standing.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
Well, maybe making is painfully OBVIOUS that they're the police would be a d*mn good start in what they should do. Looking like hooded jackboots with guns not just at the ready, but out and actually sweeping while looking like hooded goons does not strike me as professional. Nor smart.

If any of us had seen some guys in our yard, armed to the teeth, approaching doors/windows/other places while sweeping the house with firearms, not in any kind of uniform, and wearing masks like these guys, I daresay many of us would have been on high alert right away and preparing for the worse. Not saying "open fire immediately", but moving our families to better safety, calling 911, arming ourselves, etc.

The ONLY thing I saw in this that made me think "law enforcement" was the initial camera angle where the guy on the front porch was walking up and his shield said "POLICE US MARSHAL" And you know what that idiot did? He DELIBERATELY BLOCKED THE CAMERA VIEW before he knocked, and didn't even identify himself as law enforcement until his second knock.

They CLEARLY were trying to put forth only a token gesture at identifying themselves as law enforcement. Otherwise they ALL would have been clearly identifiable as such and the nitwit on the porch wouldn't have blocked the camera view before knocking, and would not have waited until the second knocking to identify himself as such.

"Oh, if the bad guy had KNOWN we were law enforcement, he would have run!"

Well, guess what, jackboot? If he KNEW a bunch of armed guys were approaching the house in the FIRST place he would have either run or upped the ante then, right? What difference would knowing whether or not the guys with the guns were LEO or not?

If these guys REALLY thought their bad guy was there, then why weren't they prepared to enter? You know...like with a warrant?

"Oh, they're just going to ask some questions."

WITH THEIR GUNS OUT AND SWEEPING? (To be fair, I only saw the one guy in back doing this...the other guy in back didn't have a firearm in hand. And the guy in front, approaching behind a shield, I couldn't see either.)

Their bad guy could have been inside the house all along, either alone, with accomplices, or with hostages. And guess what? This wouldn't have been any different if someone had actually been home and answered the door. The bad guy could have still been there.

And if they're not prepared to enter...then they can sit outside that house until the sun swells into a red giant for all I care...or get a warrant and do a proper search. How long do the police wait? Well, if there isn't a crime in progress, they can wait until the cows come home.

And to top is all off...these nitwits hadn't done their research on the residence, either.


I get it...cops of all stripes are human. But I'm tired of people making excuses for p*ss-poor behavior.
Click to expand...
 
Dan0311 said:
Ignorance. What crimes were committed for you write such a thing?
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Theft, drug dealing, and physical assault are the first examples that come to mind. I'm afraid the ignorance is on your end, as you have no idea of whom are in my circle of LEO friends, nor the contents of their war stories. Their accounts will remain in confidence, but they inform my opinions nonetheless.
 
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If I see unidentified wannabe operators, kitted up, creeping & peeping my place, covering up the doorbell cam, let's just say if they'd let themselves in, it woulda got real ugly, real fast.

Bbbbbut, what are we supposed to do, use our time & resources to stake out, gather info & the like? Nah, just act like Jack booted thugs & intimidate folks, 'cos our convenience trumps those civilians' rights. I mean, if they complain, we'll just say nuh uh, we're the police & yer not, so shut up, you don't get an opinion.

Bbbbbut, their yard wasn't posted/fenced/gated, so it ain't trespassing! So y'all cool with armed dudes looking in windows & creeping your back yard? Curtilage anyone?

Whatever it was they were doing, they're idiots for taking the bully boy/intimidation tack & lucky an armed homeowner wasn't there to act upon the best information available to them at the time.
 
Cowboy said:
Can you show me what a US Marshall's uniform looks like?
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No "uniform" but they all display some form of US Marshal or at least a badge showing.
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765197f8b230edc0e84acafdadfa529d.jpg


Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Here's a prime example of where things go horribly wrong when the police choose to engage with poor tactics.

www.wptv.com

Alteria Woods: Man charged for murder of woman during SWAT raid found not guilty; mother supports jury’s decision

An Indian River County man on trial in connection with a deadly 2017 SWAT raid in Gifford was found not guilty of five of the six charges Friday.
www.wptv.com www.wptv.com

Fortunately, this guy didn't get hung out to dry for the results of poor research and poor tactics.


Yes, it's a dangerous job...more so at some times than others. But guess what? When you sign up for that job, you accept that risk. You also accept the responsibility for actively minimizing the risks involved for everybody, for each and every scenario where law enforcement is called to perform such activities as serve papers, conduct searches, arrest people, etc. If you're at the wrong house attempting to serve a no-knock warrant, as an example,...the the key word here is WRONG. If you're chucking a flash-bang into a house/room, then you are responsible for anything that your own stupidity may have caused with respect to injuries...like the time a flash-bang ended up in the portable crib of 19 month old Bounkham Phonesavanh (which was the result of a no-knock at the wrong address).

And yes...I realize mistakes will happen, tragic though they may be.

But what I DON'T see is a whole lot of owning up to those mistakes.
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The Briana Taylor cop that got shot is still suing over it. No department cares
 
Matt.Cross said:
Theft, drug dealing, and physical assault are the first examples that come to mind. I'm afraid the ignorance is on your end, as you have no idea of whom are in my circle of LEO friends, nor the contents of their war stories. Their accounts will remain in confidence, but they inform my opinions nonetheless.
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Whoa - the Marshals in this thread were drug dealing and assaulting people?? WTF are you talking about? How did incidents of cops breaking the law come into this??? Do we then talk about gun-owners breaking the law? Try to stay on topic.
 
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The Last Outlaw said:
So this is saying that you can only be trespassing if you go into a structure? There has to be something missing here.
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The criminal act of trespassing in NC not only covers buildings, but also secured areas, posted areas, and where a person has been told to leave.

Parsing out the gory details:
- Any unauthorized entry to property is trespassing, but not all trespassing is a criminal act.
- Any trespassers can be sued for damages in civil court, but good luck getting more than nominal damages if no harm was done to the property.
- Some instances of trespassing are criminal acts under circumstances spelled out in statutory law.
 
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Crazy Carl said:
If I see unidentified wannabe operators, kitted up, creeping & peeping my place, covering up the doorbell cam, let's just say if they'd let themselves in, it woulda got real ugly, real fast.

Bbbbbut, what are we supposed to do, use our time & resources to stake out, gather info & the like? Nah, just act like Jack booted thugs & intimidate folks, 'cos our convenience trumps those civilians' rights. I mean, if they complain, we'll just say nuh uh, we're the police & yer not, so shut up, you don't get an opinion.

Bbbbbut, their yard wasn't posted/fenced/gated, so it ain't trespassing! So y'all cool with armed dudes looking in windows & creeping your back yard? Curtilage anyone?

Whatever it was they were doing, they're idiots for taking the bully boy/intimidation tack & lucky an armed homeowner wasn't there to act upon the best information available to them at the time.
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Lol, where I come from only snowflakes use the old "jack-booted thug" line. It's cute.
 
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Dan0311 said:
Whoa - the Marshals in this thread were drug dealing and assaulting people?? WTF are you talking about? How did incidents of cops breaking the law come into this??? Do we then talk about gun-owners breaking the law? Try to stay on topic.
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I misunderstood your question and answered it too broadly, sorry about that.

That said, the comments you were responding to weren't addressed to you, were they? I'll try to stay on topic if you'll try not to get bent out of shape over a simple misunderstanding.
 
Matt.Cross said:
I misunderstood your question and answered it too broadly, sorry about that.

That said, the comments you were responding to weren't addressed to you, were they? I'll try to stay on topic if you'll try not to get bent out of shape over a simple misunderstanding.
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While, "bent out of shape" is a bit strong - I'll agree with the rest.
 
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Dan0311 said:
Lol, where I come from only snowflakes use the old "jack-booted thug" line. It's cute.
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Your attempt to negate the content of my post, through the use of deflection, name calling & condescension is even cuter & tells me everything I need to know about your character. Straw man much? Not scoring any points for your brothers in blue.
 
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JimB said:
I don’t believe that this is correct, that you’re mixing up trespassing as relates to citizens and as relates to a LEO in performance of their official duties. There are limits to what a LEO can do while working, but they have a ton of flexibility vs citizens.
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Let me rephrase my thought because I know what I meant to say was correct.

Anybody can freely roam around your property if it is not posted or secured (i.e. fenced) and police have at least as much access to your property as civilians.
 
Crazy Carl said:
Your attempt to negate the content of my post, through the use of deflection, name calling & condescencion is even cuter & tells me everything I need to know about your character. Straw man much? Not scoring any points for your brothers in blue.
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So.....Jack-Booted Thugs is a term of endearment? Pot/Kettle much? I'm certainly not in this for anyone but me. My opinions as a person who has done this, knows the law (pretty well).
 
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Dan0311 said:
So.....Jack-Booted Thugs is a term of endearment? Pot/Kettle much? I'm certainly not in this for anyone but me. My opinions as a person who has done this, knows the law (pretty well).
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Again with the straw man. Hurry & google it, 'fore you dig your hole any deeper.

Pot/kettle? Bwahahahaha!!! You don't know a thing about me.

Thanks for proving my point.

Crazy Carl said:
...
Bbbbbut, what are we supposed to do, use our time & resources to stake out, gather info & the like? Nah, just act like Jack booted thugs & intimidate folks, 'cos our convenience trumps those civilians' rights. I mean, if they complain, we'll just say nuh uh, we're the police & yer not, so shut up, you don't get an opinion.
Click to expand...
 
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Crazy Carl said:
Again with the straw man. Hurry & google it, 'fore you dig your hole any deeper.

Pot/kettle? Bwahahahaha!!! You don't know a thing about me.

Thanks for proving my point.
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I know enough - you began name-calling which prompted my response - then accused me of name-calling. Gotcha'. Carl for the WIN!
 
gc70 said:
Anybody can freely roam around your property if it is not posted or secured (i.e. fenced) .
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Guess I need to go get some posted signs just in case. Other than the occasional 4 wheeler through the field, have had 3 trespassers over the years 1 knock knock run. 1 attempted break in with the wife home, pulled the gun but not the trigger unfortunately. And 1 Known criminal with gun claimed to be hunting in the field which he didn't have permission.

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