US Marshal's Service...big 'oopsie'

Mods, I apologize. I'm pretty new here and should have ducked out of this discussion a long time ago. People want to believe what they want to believe, but I was hoping that almost 33 years of recent experience in this topic would show them another, logical side - a few didn't get that. A few think they somehow know better and, who knows, maybe they're right.

Once I learn the difference between a sheep, a goat, and an alpaca - I'll start posting my thoughts on farming threads. :) What could go wrong?

Here's a funny shirt I still own - somewhere.

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We're not supposed to have AR15's but the Keystone Kops who can't figure out that someone moved 3 yrs ago was falsely reported as being in the house can.

The crappy part of this, is that had the owner of the house come to the door with a gun, which would be fully understandable, these idiots would have gotten away with murdering him/her.
 
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Dan0311 said:
If you're keeping up, I acknowledged their garb to be horrible for their mission. But you didn't answer the question. Someone kills your loved one and a tip says he's in a house - what should the police do? Wait outside? For how long? How long will that last without the surveillance being "made" - 30 seconds? So the guy doesn't come out. How long do the police wait? "Sorry Mr. NKD, we waited 12 hours and your family member's murderer never came out - so we went home."
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Do I need to answer your question?

I am under arrest or am I free to go?
 
I may be wrong but I would bet that area was worse in the late 60s and early 70s.

It was a fine playground for a young mag to grow up in just before going in the Corps.
 
@Dan0311
You, by your own words is the reason we lowly civilians are cautious of LE. You consider yourself above us. You are not.
Some LE, not all, but some/you sound like a drug addict trying to get their next fix. For you, the end justifies the means.
Right or wrong be damned. Be well, and I wish you a long healthy life.
 
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For the LEO'S following this thread, I want to understand your point of view here.
Put yourself in their shoes...let's say a different location and scenario. You are there in similar fashion to ask questions, without a warrant.
You are in this back yard, and suddenly you see a person holding a rifle aimed at you, finger on trigger, yelling for you to put down the gun.
What do you do? What is your best course of action here?

How about you are the 2nd guy, you see an armed person, squared up on your partner,...again rifle aimed at him with the finger on the trigger while he is yelling for him to put down the gun. What do you do? What is your best course of action? Do you see a scenario where all 3 people come out alive? How?

What does your training equip you to do here?
 
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JohnFreeman said:
We're not supposed to have AR15's but the Keystone Kops who can't figure out that someone moved 3 yrs ago can.
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Notwithstanding the BLM narrative spun out in WRAL's article and the woman's video, the Marshals weren't acting on some long-outdated information about where the suspect lived.
the task force received an anonymous tip on Monday that a woman who lived at the house was helping a man wanted in a Fayetteville murder hide out
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ME
@Dan0311
You, by your own words is the reason we lowly civilians are cautious of LE. You consider yourself above us. You are not.
Some LE, not all, but some/you sound like a drug addict trying to get their next fix. For you, the end justifies the means.
Right or wrong be damned. Be well, and I wish you a long healthy life.

PM From
Lieutenant Dan.
I'm going to wait right here for you to support your claims. TELL ME.....SHOW ME one thing I posted that supports that paragraph and I'll be happy to apologize and have a discussion with you - because that's quite the opposite of how I feel. If you can NOT support your bold accusation, please apologize to me on the thread, and stop wasting my time.


Me
Num Num Num. I lick your boots SIR, PLEASE forgive me. Is it all better now? I apologize for touching you there, their, they're.
 
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I'm good friends with a US Marshal. Have been for going on 13 years now. Without commenting on anything outside of the subject of how these officers were dressed, I know how he would answer if I were to question him on his feelings of how these guys presented themselves. I know because I've heard him talk about this kind of thing before and not just about US Marshals but other LE agencies as well.

Next time I see him I'll ask him anyway. But I know his answer already. These guys were stupendously ignorant and unprofessional. Maybe they use different tactics in different environments. Maybe if they were in a rural area or nice affluent neighborhood they would dress with the appropriate signage identifying themselves as Law Enforcement. Maybe not.

To me, this is as bad as if they would have dressed up in a deer outfit and wondered around in the woods at the start of hunting season. That's how stupid this looks, at least to me anyway.

Just like @RetiredUSNChief stated earlier, they can kill you and walk away, if you kill one or more of them, you go away. The takeaway here is the fact that there are folks out there that understand this and see it as a no win situation when they are dressed like in this story. There are folks out there that aren't going to respond with a 9mm pea shooter and engage these guys through a window.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
The police again forgetting to do their homework, it's sad, how far police work has fallen.
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From the article-

"Brian Alfano, assistant chief inspector for the Marshals Service's Carolinas Regional Fugitive Task Force, told WRAL News on Wednesday that the task force received an anonymous tip on Monday that a woman who lived at the house was helping a man wanted in a Fayetteville murder hide out."



So how far removed is this situation from a red flag phone call?

.
 
Dan0311 said:
"the task force received an anonymous tip on Monday that a woman who lived at the house was helping a man wanted in a Fayetteville murder hide out. The officers never went into the home and left once they couldn't contact anyone inside or any neighbors, he said."

There is no mention of a search warrant that I could see. Imagine your loved one was murdered and the police got a tip that the murderer may be back at his old house. How would you feel if the police didn't even follow through and knock on the door?!? I would imagine most of us here would be ready to punch the police commander that made that decision. You have to at least knock - anonymous/unverified does not get you a search warrant, but you owe it to the victim's family to at least try.
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I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but knocking on a door dressed like law enforcement and dressing like the IRA are two very different things. Especially when they start covering cameras.

Edited to add: If I saw this outside I wouldn't answer the door. My wife and I would be armed and on the phone with police. How would the police respond if they rolled up on these guys if they hadn't informed the local police that they were pissing in their pool?
 
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Wow!

First, an "opinion" filled thread like this hasn't fully devolved into name calling in 6 pages? Not even any random seeming posts because some were deleted? Bravo!

Second (ok. Second verse, same as the first. But different). Dude from a northern big city area, but is here in the Carolinas since, however long. Can't figure out why the folks in the place he decided to immigrate to have differing views on the topic at hand compared to his experience from a completely different place.....

Why anyone would relocate to a different region and then be blown away that how they did it back home isn't how we do it here (where they chose to come...) is absolutely beyond me.


Still cheers to them and everyone else for not going full name calling yet. Im not mad, I'm impressed
 
Gator said:
From the article-

"Brian Alfano, assistant chief inspector for the Marshals Service's Carolinas Regional Fugitive Task Force, told WRAL News on Wednesday that the task force received an anonymous tip on Monday that a woman who lived at the house was helping a man wanted in a Fayetteville murder hide out."



So how far removed is this situation from a red flag phone call?

.
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Should they have ignored the tip?
 
Dan0311 said:
- Again, I 100% agree with their poor choice of "uniform" or lack thereof. I've posted that several times. People have got off scott-free after shooting at police entry teams who failed to properly ID themselves. A friend was killed by friendly fire by another agency for the same thing.
- The warrant thing has been explained several times; you can't get a warrant on an anonymous and unverified telephonic tip. It does not appear that they had any intention of making entry (or they would have).
- If you're looking for a murder suspect and you're 5 feet from a window you can't see into - use that tactics that you want.
- True, bad guy could have been there all the time. They got a lead, they did as much as legally possible and left.
- Waiting on a house from an anonymous tip "until the cows come home" is unrealistic in any jurisdiction I've worked or trained with across the country.
- You have ZERO knowledge on what research they did. The Murderers aunt Millie might live there now.
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Who said Millie!!!!!
 
Here’s a couple of thoughts….

(Before I proceed, I have family and lifelong friends in LE, and work with many LE agencies quite often)

-Remove ALL “professional immunity” from every sworn badge and gun carrying cop from the new recruits all the way to the chief, and remove government liability protections from every LE agency, fed, state, or local. In other words, make every breathing thing under the roof of a precinct ACCOUNTABLE for screw-ups, mistakes, and wrong addresses up to and including life in prison and open ended financial lawsuits by victims and/or families and I will GUARANTEE the screw-ups, mistakes, and wrong address incidents will STOP!!!

-If a private investigator can take a name and a picture and find someone in less than a week, then what are THEY doing that LE can’t/won’t?

-How about LE wear day-glo, hi-viz garments with POLICE in bold, black letters? You know…..easily identifiable even on a cheesy, Chinese 720p security camera?

I’m not trynna throw gas on a fire, here, but there are methods and alternatives to mitigate threats and dangers, regardless of degree of danger or consequences. Even if it means a bad guy is free for another day or three…..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Couldn’t wait to get back and check in on this thread. Did not disappoint. Let me say-I don’t envy the role of a peace officer. I truly believe without law and order there would be no civilized societies. My initial point on uniforms was this-uniforms are visual aides that help us determine a person’s role in a given situation.

In almost every law regarding use of force and self defense you see the word reasonable…

Now let’s take John Q Citizen. John has not broken any law today or in the past. John looks out his window and sees 2 uniformed officers with weapons drawn in his back yard. John’s WTF meter goes off and John slowly and carefully walks out his back door,hands empty and clearly visible, and asks “What the hell is going on officer?” After explaining to John they are looking for a suspect and John assures them there is no such bad actor present John allows the uniformed officers to have a look see around and after verifying that is indeed the case said uniformed officers leave. As jarring as that is for John, it’s reasonable and all go about the rest of their day.

Now let’s take scenario 2- John looks out his window and sees 2 guys in his backyard that look like they just stepped out of the the 5.11 Tactical catalog. John’s WTF meter gets pegged to 11 and he grabs his HD rifle and takes his position where he can see both his front and back door with his cell phone. Before John can dial 9, Starskey and Hutch bang on the door and say “US Marshals! Open up we have a warrant!” Not sure this is all it seems, as there is no reasonable indication they are officers, John drops his phone and shoulders his weapon.About that time the door busts open and shots ring out.

There will be three possible outcomes for scenario 2. Either John is killed /wounded or one or both of the officers are killed/wounded or all three end up dead. If John is killed or wounded John will be told “Should have just let us in and all would be Ok.” If the tactically clad but unidentifiable officers end up dead or wounded John goes to trial with the possibility of capital punishment depending on the state.

If I am on the jury John Q Public is found not guilty in scenario 2. In 2021 there is no reasonable scenario where the public should believe you are a law enforcement officer just because they tell you they are. Even if they are wearing pants with double reinforced knee stitching and extra flexible waistband…

Uniforms matter in these situations. Soldiers wear a uniform for a reason. Now if I could only come up with examples in world history of secret/covert police forces causing great detriment to their people 🤔
 
ChickenHawk said:
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but knocking on a door dressed like law enforcement and dressing like the IRA are two very different things. Especially when they start covering cameras.

Edited to add: If I saw this outside I wouldn't answer the door. My wife and I would be armed and on the phone with police. How would the police respond if they rolled up on these guys if they hadn't informed the local police that they were pissing in their pool?
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If I saw those guys around my house, I would call 911. Let them sort it out. I'm not opening the door.
 
Millie said:
If I saw those guys around my house, I would call 911. Let them sort it out. I'm not opening the door.
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The police will be wandering through your yard anyways at some point in the day, as that is evidently a routine aspect of their job.... Just give them a little time, it takes a while to wander through all the properties in a given precinct.
 
Matt.Cross said:
The police will be wandering through your yard anyways at some point in the day, as that is evidently a routine aspect of their job.... Just give them a little time, it takes a while to wander through all the properties in a given precinct.
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I'll wait. lol.
 
Glocker said:
Now let’s take John Q Citizen. John has not broken any law today or in the past. John looks out his window and sees 2 uniformed officers with weapons drawn in his back yard. John’s WTF meter goes off
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Stop right there. This is an example of what I keep saying about colonial era justice, from which the “governing” documents were formed for today. At the founding. One would not have armed men, uniformed or not, surrounding your home unless some private entity convinced a grand jury, unless called a militia,that you comittee a crime warranting your arrest..
 
noway2 said:
Stop right there. This is an example of what I keep saying about colonial era justice, from which the “governing” documents were formed for today. At the founding. One would not have armed men, uniformed or not, surrounding your home unless some private entity convinced a grand jury, unless called a militia,that you comittee a crime warranting your arrest..
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From what I can discern from your post I would have to say I disagree…in colonial times they would have come with torches and pitchforks, woken you from your slumber, and marched you to the nearest oak tree and watched you do the “air dance” just on the basis of what your accuser convinced enough people of what he said you did (see also Salem witch trials)…that sounds better to you than what we have today?
 
J R Green said:
We aren't talking about no knocks. We are talking about cops walking up and knocking on a door, something that isn't illegal and never will be.
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no, we're talking about dudes sneaking around the back of a house and peeking in windows using the weapon light at the front of their rifle to help them see inside, by pointing it in the windows.
That's a GREAT way to escalate a situation.

Cowboy said:
Then maybe you shouldn't own a gun.
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I don't want to say things that will get me a time out... just know that i'm thinking it at you really hard.
If any person walks up towards a cop car like this...
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...trying to see inside by pointing their muzzle light in the car window, how will it be perceived? Every cop in the world would be justified by shooting somebody approaching them like that. This joker wants to walk up to a house that way and you think it's okay?

I want you to fully understand when I say this. I had a great conversation with a cop in town the other night, and posted about it in another thread. It left me with the kind of positive view of cops that cops WISH they could get from the general public.
You just trashed all that and set it back a ways.
Next time I see a cop I'll be thinking about this "only ones" garbage you're spouting.
 
BASIL said:
@Dan0311
You, by your own words is the reason we lowly civilians are cautious of LE. You consider yourself above us. You are not.
Some LE, not all, but some/you sound like a drug addict trying to get their next fix. For you, the end justifies the means.
Right or wrong be damned. Be well, and I wish you a long healthy life.
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You, know your not going to get any Christmas cards acting like this.

😁
 
Dan0311 said:
- If you're looking for a murder suspect and you're 5 feet from a window you can't see into - use that tactics that you want.
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absolutely fricking not
I went grocery shopping tonight with a streamlight on my pistol, and a streamlight in my pocket.
Why? because you don't go pointing guns around without a good reason.
"i can't see very well" is NOT a good reason.
If i need to see something that may or may not be a threat, i don't get to point a weaponlight at it just to figure it out. that is brandishing a gun and would be illegal all on its own. He shouldn't either because it's STUPID
Are you really going to defend that level of stupidity?
 
BASIL said:
@Dan0311
You, by your own words is the reason we lowly civilians are cautious of LE. You consider yourself above us. You are not.
Some LE, not all, but some/you sound like a drug addict trying to get their next fix. For you, the end justifies the means.
Right or wrong be damned. Be well, and I wish you a long healthy life.
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heh. okay.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
I went grocery shopping tonight with a streamlight on my pistol, and a streamlight in my pocket.
Why? because you don't go pointing guns around without a good reason.
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First -maybe try a Food Lion or Harris Teeter..well lit parking lots and parking spaces close enough for a quick sprint to the closest door.

Second- I’ve never seen a person walking around a parking lot with a flashlight and thought “they have a good reason”…
 
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