Detective sues Sig Sauer after she says her holstered P320 handgun nearly killed her

Based off Sig’s past they will go to trial and after day one settle out of court for an undisclosed amount and the Detective and Sig will both walk away Happy
 
Miss Lily said:
I don't know how many times I have preached this very thing. Some folks just can't be convinced.
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yeah well, when you have to be in places where they constantly eyeball your pockets and waist line, but don't look in whatever bag/briefcase/backpack/etc. I had a lot of years of dealing with that.
 
wvsig said:
Like I said upstream if something got stuck in that trigger area inside that holster that caused the discharge it would have still been stuck in the holster after it went off.
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You said it twice, it seems logical, but that doesn't mean it's true. The force of recoil and the reciprocation of the slide inside a holster, which is unrestrained inside her purse, would have involved a lot of movement. I don't have a Serpa holster for good reason. But it would be a good experiment to put on live shell it the chamber followed by one dummy round it the mag, put the P320 in the Sig holster (mine came with one) unrestrained on a bench somewhere and use a hook or string to pull the trigger to watch the result. (I'm trying to work out making sure the gun wouldn't rotate back up-range while activating the trigger. Any ideas?) My guess is the gun comes out of the holster and flies back several feet.

I admit 54 NDs claiming to happen without manipulation of the trigger are a lot. But I have yet to see, or hear of with proof, a gun discharge without something manipulating the firing mechanism. Call me skeptical.

And which is more likely after an ND by "highly trained" LEOs: 1) that a gun went off by itself, or 2) that LEOs would lie to cover real reasons for an ND?

I've had a P320 Tacops since right after its born on date in August 2016. I shot the original trigger, installed a GrayGuns Trigger myself, didn't get the upgrade because Sig wouldn't send the GG Trigger back (so it seemed like a waste of time to have the trigger upgraded and install the GG Trigger again anyway), then got a free GG Trigger upgrade in which GG sent the trigger back to Sig for upgrade and then installed a new GG Trigger and sent the gun back to me. During all this time I've kept the gun, when not shooting IDPA with the Sig holster, in a dreaded nylon holster. This holster is carried in a shooting bag, carried to my truck, put on the seat, sometimes in the console among other loose objects, and just generally treated as a tool that needs to be activated to work. I've never had an ND with it, and it never discharged on its own. I realize it's a sample size of one.

PS - for full disclosure, the GG Trigger I installed initially did quit after I removed it one time for a thorough cleaning. I took it out again later, and the problem seemed fixed. But, I called GG and that's when they told me about the free upgrade through them, and not direct to Sig.

PSS - She smelled gunpowder, and felt pain. No mention of any deafening noise. Would the purse have killed the sound?
 
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dmarbell said:
You said it twice, it seems logical, but that doesn't mean it's true. The force of recoil and the reciprocation of the slide inside a holster, which is unrestrained inside her purse, would have involved a lot of movement. I don't have a Sherpa holster for good reason. But it would be a good experiment to put on live shell it the chamber followed by one dummy round it the mag, put the P320 in the Sig holster (mine came with one) unrestrained on a bench somewhere and use a hook or string to pull the trigger to watch the result. (I'm trying to work out making sure the gun wouldn't rotate back up-range while activating the trigger. Any ideas?) My guess is the gun comes out of the holster and flies back several feet.

I admit 54 NDs claiming to happen without manipulation of the trigger are a lot. But I have yet to see, or hear of with proof, a gun discharge without something manipulating the firing mechanism. Call me skeptical.

And which is more likely after an ND by "highly trained" LEOs: 1) that a gun went off by itself, or 2) that LEOs would lie to cover real reasons for an ND?

I've had a P320 Tacops since right after its born on date in August 2016. I shot the original trigger, installed a GrayGuns Trigger myself, didn't get the upgrade because Sig wouldn't send the GG Trigger back (so it seemed like a waste of time to have the trigger upgraded and install the GG Trigger again anyway), then got a free GG Trigger upgrade in which GG sent the trigger back to Sig for upgrade and then installed a new GG Trigger and sent the gun back to me. During all this time I've kept the gun, when not shooting IDPA with the Sig holster, in a dreaded nylon holster. This holster is carried in a shooting bag, carried to my truck, put on the seat, sometimes in the console among other loose objects, and just generally treated as a tool that needs to be activated to work. I've never had an ND with it, and it never discharged on its own. I realize it's a sample size of one.

PS - for full disclosure, the GG Trigger I installed initially did quit after I removed it one time for a thorough cleaning. I took it out again later, and the problem seemed fixed. But, I called GG and that's when they told me about the free upgrade through them, and not direct to Sig.

PSS - She smelled gunpowder, and felt pain. No mention of any deafening noise. Would the purse have killed the sound?
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I get what you are saying but in other videos where the P320 has discharged in the holster the gun did not leave the holster. Maybe I was mistaken but I thought it was stated in the video that the gun was still in the holster after it was fired in this case. Either way I am glad you have not had issues with your P320. I owned an early one in 45 ACP and got the upgrade on it and sold it immediately with full disclosure. I personally will not own a Sig designed and manufactured during the Cohen Era of Sig. I believe that they rush concepts to market and let the the shooting public beta test them. 3-4 years after initial release they have a good working platform or they scrap the platform all together.

I know there is a lot of speculation that without the manual safety and the changes that Sig made to the gun it would have never been adopted as the M17. I also read a discussion at some point that some of the problems in the gun might come from the use of the legacy trigger design from the P250 which was the foundation for the P320 design. It required the striker to be designed in an unconventional way. The trigger bar for the P250 was a DAO gun and they put the trigger bar above the top of the trigger in order to gain leverage. They kept that concept and as a result the P320 trigger bar moves forward to release the striker. In Glocks and other striker-fired guns the trigger bar moved rearward to release the striker. This may or may not be the issue. It also has a unconventional striker block design. The striker-block safety is the yellow piece above the purple piece in the following photo. When you innovate in this way you have to fully test the design before you bring it to market. I am not sure Sig does that. Found this info sited on THR post by our very own @gc70 https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/so-about-the-p320-trigger.893471/page-3

APEX112022-a-244x300.jpg

Sig-P320-internal-safety-400x243.png

I remember when many of us took the LAV KH class when the P365 was just hitting the market and was immediately pulled off the shelves. LAV expressed the thought that Sig gets a gun 80% and releases it and after they get feedback from the shooting public they rework the design. His recommendation was to wait years before buying a new Sig platform. Let someone else be a beta tester. I have almost bought a P365XL multiple times but I just can't pull the trigger. Pun intended. I love the old P series Sigs but honestly the new ones scare me and I just don't trust them.
 
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dmarbell said:
You said it twice, it seems logical, but that doesn't mean it's true. The force of recoil and the reciprocation of the slide inside a holster, which is unrestrained inside her purse, would have involved a lot of movement. I don't have a Sherpa holster for good reason. But it would be a good experiment to put on live shell it the chamber followed by one dummy round it the mag, put the P320 in the Sig holster (mine came with one) unrestrained on a bench somewhere and use a hook or string to pull the trigger to watch the result. (I'm trying to work out making sure the gun wouldn't rotate back up-range while activating the trigger. Any ideas?) My guess is the gun comes out of the holster and flies back several feet.

I admit 54 NDs claiming to happen without manipulation of the trigger are a lot. But I have yet to see, or hear of with proof, a gun discharge without something manipulating the firing mechanism. Call me skeptical.

And which is more likely after an ND by "highly trained" LEOs: 1) that a gun went off by itself, or 2) that LEOs would lie to cover real reasons for an ND?

I've had a P320 Tacops since right after its born on date in August 2016. I shot the original trigger, installed a GrayGuns Trigger myself, didn't get the upgrade because Sig wouldn't send the GG Trigger back (so it seemed like a waste of time to have the trigger upgraded and install the GG Trigger again anyway), then got a free GG Trigger upgrade in which GG sent the trigger back to Sig for upgrade and then installed a new GG Trigger and sent the gun back to me. During all this time I've kept the gun, when not shooting IDPA with the Sig holster, in a dreaded nylon holster. This holster is carried in a shooting bag, carried to my truck, put on the seat, sometimes in the console among other loose objects, and just generally treated as a tool that needs to be activated to work. I've never had an ND with it, and it never discharged on its own. I realize it's a sample size of one.

PS - for full disclosure, the GG Trigger I installed initially did quit after I removed it one time for a thorough cleaning. I took it out again later, and the problem seemed fixed. But, I called GG and that's when they told me about the free upgrade through them, and not direct to Sig.

PSS - She smelled gunpowder, and felt pain. No mention of any deafening noise. Would the purse have killed the sound?
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If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.
I'm betting the gun stays holstered and doesn't eject brass.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
correction. the let their finger slide to the trigger AFTER they hit the release.
which is insane to me because the release is in line with the frame, the retention mechanism is in line with the trigger. it's impossible to screw up during the draw. the mistake has to be made by bad technique after the draw.
it's not the holster's fault other than not being idiot proof.
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I believe it has to do with mentally "activating" the trigger finger. Your asking the trigger finger to do 2 jobs. I think it's a mental cross up. And when you consider, under stress we lose fine motor skills, there's a problem.
 
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georgel said:
I believe it has to do with mentally "activating" the trigger finger. Your asking the trigger finger to do 2 jobs. I think it's a mental cross up. And when you consider, under stress we lose fine motor skills, there's a problem.
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that's what i said - user error
 
I'm surprised we're having a discussion on this like it's something new. Here's a vid from 2017. I'm looking for the one that discusses frame flex.

 
You won't find a trainer or pistol match director who likes, or in many cases even allows Serpa holsters. And for LEO and .gov/.mil who NEED retention like that, Safariland makes much better alternatives.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
that's what i said - user error
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Yes, I was just trying to clarify the design helps facilitate the error. It's not just a one off goof by someone inexperienced. There have been too many incidents, to the point they have been banned at ranges.
 
fieldgrade said:
Safariland makes much better alternatives.
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IMHO the ALS is the best retention holster on the market and the QLS with honorable mention.
I have both. The designs are safe, clever, ergonomic, and natural...and the materials used are hammer-tough.
 
She shot herself in the leg. She can say it was her fault, get ridiculed and maybe disciplinary action - or she can say it was holstered and "it just went off". Many here are stuck on believing everything she says happened......yes, it would be difficult if the items in her purse caused the shot...IF it was holstered.

I saw a body cam video of an FN that 'just went off' - but it didn't show what actually happened. Gotta' find the Sig 320 video of the gun going off when the officer was getting out of the car.
 
What about the M17 that the US military bought? Is it the same gun? Does it have a thumb safety and does the thumb safety prevent this type of discharge?
 
Timfoilhat said:
If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.
I'm betting the gun stays holstered and doesn't eject brass.
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This is Big fun on the Range...folks are always amazed^^^^^
 
Timfoilhat said:
If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.
I'm betting the gun stays holstered and doesn't eject brass.
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Please demonstrate using your thumb, record video, and post results. Empirical data.
 
Longish 30 minute video. I can help by saying that starting at 6:17 the P320 was repositioned to allow for a solid strike and it fired by hitting it with the hammer. Other guns were tested and the P320 was the only one that fired in this manner.

Can somebody with experience estimate the ft-lbs of energy exerted on the back of the gun by these hammer strikes? I'm not going to say the P320 doesn't have a flaw - but if you have to hold it tightly and strike it with, I don't know, maybe 50 ft-lbs of force, or drop it from shoulder level and land it precisely on the top of the slide and the beavertail at an exact angle (as in other test videos), to make it fire without pulling the trigger, I'm not sure what you've proven in real-life situations.

 
georgel said:
I'm surprised we're having a discussion on this like it's something new. Here's a vid from 2017. I'm looking for the one that discusses frame flex.

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That vid was posted 9-Aug-17, and the upgrade came out in Aug'17 but I can't find an exact date. Some Sig info:

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER

The P320® Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost.
www.sigsauer.com www.sigsauer.com
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-upgrade-program-information

Lots of conjecture but a few posts from Armorers familiar with some of the failures. These strike tests seem to have more to do with either 1) the trigger bar moving forward (which is why the trigger is seen to move rearward) or 2) a metallurgy issue with the striker itself. The latter seems more easily addressed than the former, but I don't plan on beating my gun with a hammer either.

In terms of the incident reported by the OP, too many ways "something" else could have gone on in that purse that we'll never be told. No useful data there at all.

I alternate between a SC P250 with the newer grip for carry (P320 Sub style) and the house gun is a C P320 with extended mags. I sometimes carry the Compact as a vehicle gun as well. I may alter how that is stored to make sure it doesn't move around. Other than that, I like the newer trigger for fast follow up shots much better and won't be concerned about it in my hand.
 
dmarbell said:
Start at 2:00 mark, watch on Youtube for some reason.

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Thanks. Still wondering if make/model/caliber makes a difference but clearly has some application as well. Now we just have to wait for the "disarm the attacker by taking his gun" comments to show up... ;-)
 
I have no position on the specific incident. But.

From the article:

"A number of those suing the gunmaker said they are in law enforcement with extensive firearms experience."

In my personal (and dated) experience, there are more LEOs who believe that they are experts than there are those who actually are. Just my own personal observation.
 
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JT said:
I have no position on the specific incident. But.

From the article:

"A number of those suing the gunmaker said they are in law enforcement with extensive firearms experience."

In my personal (and dated) experience, there are more LEOs who believe that they are experts than there are those who actually are. Just my own personal observation.
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I agree with this and mean no disrespect. LEO are no different than the concealed carry holders. Some of them are dedicated shooters and practice their craft. Others not so much. The problem I see is that once you are sworn in as an LEO you are automatically anointed an "expert" even though many only fire their duty weapon once a year to qualify.
 
/dev/1413 said:
That vid was posted 9-Aug-17, and the upgrade came out in Aug'17 but I can't find an exact date. Some Sig info:

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER

The P320® Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost.
www.sigsauer.com www.sigsauer.com
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-upgrade-program-information

Lots of conjecture but a few posts from Armorers familiar with some of the failures. These strike tests seem to have more to do with either 1) the trigger bar moving forward (which is why the trigger is seen to move rearward) or 2) a metallurgy issue with the striker itself. The latter seems more easily addressed than the former, but I don't plan on beating my gun with a hammer either.

In terms of the incident reported by the OP, too many ways "something" else could have gone on in that purse that we'll never be told. No useful data there at all.

I alternate between a SC P250 with the newer grip for carry (P320 Sub style) and the house gun is a C P320 with extended mags. I sometimes carry the Compact as a vehicle gun as well. I may alter how that is stored to make sure it doesn't move around. Other than that, I like the newer trigger for fast follow up shots much better and won't be concerned about it in my hand.
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The point was that it's an old known issue and remember, the "upgrade" was voluntary. There are others that have shown the issue to continue after the "upgrades", which is where the frame flex idea came from. Again, this is not new.

/dev/1413 said:
Appreciate that, I'm familiar. Not the same test tho.
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/dev/1413 said:
Thanks. Still wondering if make/model/caliber makes a difference but clearly has some application as well. Now we just have to wait for the "disarm the attacker by taking his gun" comments to show up... ;-)
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What kind of test are you looking for? I have personally had hold of a slide barehanded, when the gun discharged, though it was unintentional. I got a little burn on my palm from the ejection port and a nice 1/8th" gouge in my hand where the post front sight hit it, but nowhere near the catastrophic damage that some seem to think will happen. Although, there was some slide movement, the gun did not cycle. By the way, the gun was a .45ACP 1911 Commander sized gun. This experience has confirmed to me that I can bind up a gun in a fight. As long as the first round doesn't hit me, it turns his gun into a club and I still have hold of it. And yes, I've had training to do so.
(By William Aprill at Rangermaster in TN, when Tom Givens still owned it, it you want specifics.)

You carry SIG's, good for you. I don't care. I was saying, P320 issues and not something new and should be given some consideration rather than dismissed.
 
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georgel said:
The point was that it's an old known issue and remember, the "upgrade" was voluntary. There are others that have shown the issue to continue after the "upgrades", which is where the frame flex idea came from. Again, this is not new.



What kind of test are you looking for? I have personally had hold of a slide barehanded, when the gun discharged, though it was unintentional. I got a little burn on my palm from the ejection port and a nice 1/8th" gouge in my hand where the post front sight hit it, but nowhere near the catastrophic damage that some seem to think will happen. Although, there was some slide movement, the gun did not cycle. By the way, the gun was a .45ACP 1911 Commander sized gun. This experience has confirmed to me that I can bind up a gun in a fight. As long as the first round doesn't hit me, it turns his gun into a club and I still have hold of it. And yes, I've had training to do so.
(By William Aprill at Rangermaster in TN, when Tom Givens still owned it, it you want specifics.)

You carry SIG's, good for you. I don't care. I was saying, P320 issues and not something new and should be given some consideration rather than dismissed.
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My comments seem to have aggravated you but in fact we're on the same page. Hence the comment you didn't quote. I've taken the issues into consideration and I'm good with the weapon as it stands, while hoping to see some improvements as well.
 
Even with my decades in LE, I'm friends with much more non-LE gun owners. I'd say that my LE friends, on average, shoot maybe a little less than my non-LE friends. And where I've worked, there's not many LEO's that I'd consider a gun 'expert'. The reasons for these observation are plenty, but not really appropriate for this thread. I am dubious of claims that a gun went off by itself though. Haven't found any conclusive videos of this - if someone know of one please pass it along.
 
/dev/1413 said:
My comments seem to have aggravated you but in fact we're on the same page. Hence the comment you didn't quote. I've taken the issues into consideration and I'm good with the weapon as it stands, while hoping to see some improvements as well.
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Ok, cool. It just seemed that you were being dismissive of some of the others comments or examples/demonstrations.
 
/dev/1413 said:
I alternate between a SC P250 with the newer grip for carry (P320 Sub style) and the house gun is a C P320 with extended mags. I sometimes carry the Compact as a vehicle gun as well. I may alter how that is stored to make sure it doesn't move around. Other than that, I like the newer trigger for fast follow up shots much better and won't be concerned about it in my hand.
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Good idea. I specifically don't keep any striker guns that utilize a loaded spring design for vehicle guns. Glocks, as much as I don't care for them, are preferred for this role in my household. My thinking is a car accident that resulted in a firearm discharge that hurt someone would be a mess that's completely avoidable. That P250 would suffice in your situation if you're limited to only existing handguns you mentioned in this thread. Hammer guns still do some things better.

Glad someone found a video for you of the thumb behind the slide. You should try it. Better yet, consider advanced training. It's both fun and responsible.
 
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