Stop right there...........Serpa
Stop right there...........Serpa
Thanks for jumping in here. You said that in a much nicer way than I would have.Cause they don’t wanna look like the huge dick he made himself look like?
oh no, he didn't get banned for that did he?Cause they don’t wanna look like the huge dick he made himself look like?
I don't know how many times I have preached this very thing. Some folks just can't be convinced.Off Body Carry...Bad JuJu...............
yeah well, when you have to be in places where they constantly eyeball your pockets and waist line, but don't look in whatever bag/briefcase/backpack/etc. I had a lot of years of dealing with that.I don't know how many times I have preached this very thing. Some folks just can't be convinced.
The p320 early on was a disaster and sig handled it poorly. They deserve all the lawsuits they get hit withAmbulance chasing
Like I said upstream if something got stuck in that trigger area inside that holster that caused the discharge it would have still been stuck in the holster after it went off.
You said it twice, it seems logical, but that doesn't mean it's true. The force of recoil and the reciprocation of the slide inside a holster, which is unrestrained inside her purse, would have involved a lot of movement. I don't have a Sherpa holster for good reason. But it would be a good experiment to put on live shell it the chamber followed by one dummy round it the mag, put the P320 in the Sig holster (mine came with one) unrestrained on a bench somewhere and use a hook or string to pull the trigger to watch the result. (I'm trying to work out making sure the gun wouldn't rotate back up-range while activating the trigger. Any ideas?) My guess is the gun comes out of the holster and flies back several feet.
I admit 54 NDs claiming to happen without manipulation of the trigger are a lot. But I have yet to see, or hear of with proof, a gun discharge without something manipulating the firing mechanism. Call me skeptical.
And which is more likely after an ND by "highly trained" LEOs: 1) that a gun went off by itself, or 2) that LEOs would lie to cover real reasons for an ND?
I've had a P320 Tacops since right after its born on date in August 2016. I shot the original trigger, installed a GrayGuns Trigger myself, didn't get the upgrade because Sig wouldn't send the GG Trigger back (so it seemed like a waste of time to have the trigger upgraded and install the GG Trigger again anyway), then got a free GG Trigger upgrade in which GG sent the trigger back to Sig for upgrade and then installed a new GG Trigger and sent the gun back to me. During all this time I've kept the gun, when not shooting IDPA with the Sig holster, in a dreaded nylon holster. This holster is carried in a shooting bag, carried to my truck, put on the seat, sometimes in the console among other loose objects, and just generally treated as a tool that needs to be activated to work. I've never had an ND with it, and it never discharged on its own. I realize it's a sample size of one.
PS - for full disclosure, the GG Trigger I installed initially did quit after I removed it one time for a thorough cleaning. I took it out again later, and the problem seemed fixed. But, I called GG and that's when they told me about the free upgrade through them, and not direct to Sig.
PSS - She smelled gunpowder, and felt pain. No mention of any deafening noise. Would the purse have killed the sound?
If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.You said it twice, it seems logical, but that doesn't mean it's true. The force of recoil and the reciprocation of the slide inside a holster, which is unrestrained inside her purse, would have involved a lot of movement. I don't have a Sherpa holster for good reason. But it would be a good experiment to put on live shell it the chamber followed by one dummy round it the mag, put the P320 in the Sig holster (mine came with one) unrestrained on a bench somewhere and use a hook or string to pull the trigger to watch the result. (I'm trying to work out making sure the gun wouldn't rotate back up-range while activating the trigger. Any ideas?) My guess is the gun comes out of the holster and flies back several feet.
I admit 54 NDs claiming to happen without manipulation of the trigger are a lot. But I have yet to see, or hear of with proof, a gun discharge without something manipulating the firing mechanism. Call me skeptical.
And which is more likely after an ND by "highly trained" LEOs: 1) that a gun went off by itself, or 2) that LEOs would lie to cover real reasons for an ND?
I've had a P320 Tacops since right after its born on date in August 2016. I shot the original trigger, installed a GrayGuns Trigger myself, didn't get the upgrade because Sig wouldn't send the GG Trigger back (so it seemed like a waste of time to have the trigger upgraded and install the GG Trigger again anyway), then got a free GG Trigger upgrade in which GG sent the trigger back to Sig for upgrade and then installed a new GG Trigger and sent the gun back to me. During all this time I've kept the gun, when not shooting IDPA with the Sig holster, in a dreaded nylon holster. This holster is carried in a shooting bag, carried to my truck, put on the seat, sometimes in the console among other loose objects, and just generally treated as a tool that needs to be activated to work. I've never had an ND with it, and it never discharged on its own. I realize it's a sample size of one.
PS - for full disclosure, the GG Trigger I installed initially did quit after I removed it one time for a thorough cleaning. I took it out again later, and the problem seemed fixed. But, I called GG and that's when they told me about the free upgrade through them, and not direct to Sig.
PSS - She smelled gunpowder, and felt pain. No mention of any deafening noise. Would the purse have killed the sound?
I believe it has to do with mentally "activating" the trigger finger. Your asking the trigger finger to do 2 jobs. I think it's a mental cross up. And when you consider, under stress we lose fine motor skills, there's a problem.correction. the let their finger slide to the trigger AFTER they hit the release.
which is insane to me because the release is in line with the frame, the retention mechanism is in line with the trigger. it's impossible to screw up during the draw. the mistake has to be made by bad technique after the draw.
it's not the holster's fault other than not being idiot proof.
that's what i said - user errorI believe it has to do with mentally "activating" the trigger finger. Your asking the trigger finger to do 2 jobs. I think it's a mental cross up. And when you consider, under stress we lose fine motor skills, there's a problem.
Yes, I was just trying to clarify the design helps facilitate the error. It's not just a one off goof by someone inexperienced. There have been too many incidents, to the point they have been banned at ranges.that's what i said - user error
IMHO the ALS is the best retention holster on the market and the QLS with honorable mention.Safariland makes much better alternatives.
Funny you askWhat about the M17 that the US military bought? Is it the same gun? Does it have a thumb safety and does the thumb safety prevent this type of discharge?
if i come back down there, i'm bringing serpas...Stop right there...........
This is Big fun on the Range...folks are always amazed^^^^^If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.
I'm betting the gun stays holstered and doesn't eject brass.
And I will give my best Clint impression of plastic holsters.....if i come back down there, i'm bringing serpas...
they said the same stuff about plastic guns 40 years ago. 😢And I will give my best Clint impression of plastic holsters.....
And the ones that get it right will be accepted or tolerated anyway.they said the same stuff about plastic guns 40 years ago. 😢
Please demonstrate using your thumb, record video, and post results. Empirical data.If you put you thumb behind the slide on any striker gun you can fire it and hold the slide shut so it won't reciprocate. It's surprising how little force is there.
I'm betting the gun stays holstered and doesn't eject brass.
I'm surprised we're having a discussion on this like it's something new. Here's a vid from 2017. I'm looking for the one that discusses frame flex.
Start at 2:00 mark, watch on Youtube for some reason.
I have no position on the specific incident. But.
From the article:
"A number of those suing the gunmaker said they are in law enforcement with extensive firearms experience."
In my personal (and dated) experience, there are more LEOs who believe that they are experts than there are those who actually are. Just my own personal observation.
The point was that it's an old known issue and remember, the "upgrade" was voluntary. There are others that have shown the issue to continue after the "upgrades", which is where the frame flex idea came from. Again, this is not new.That vid was posted 9-Aug-17, and the upgrade came out in Aug'17 but I can't find an exact date. Some Sig info:
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-upgrade-program-informationP320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER
The P320® Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost.www.sigsauer.com
Lots of conjecture but a few posts from Armorers familiar with some of the failures. These strike tests seem to have more to do with either 1) the trigger bar moving forward (which is why the trigger is seen to move rearward) or 2) a metallurgy issue with the striker itself. The latter seems more easily addressed than the former, but I don't plan on beating my gun with a hammer either.
In terms of the incident reported by the OP, too many ways "something" else could have gone on in that purse that we'll never be told. No useful data there at all.
I alternate between a SC P250 with the newer grip for carry (P320 Sub style) and the house gun is a C P320 with extended mags. I sometimes carry the Compact as a vehicle gun as well. I may alter how that is stored to make sure it doesn't move around. Other than that, I like the newer trigger for fast follow up shots much better and won't be concerned about it in my hand.
Appreciate that, I'm familiar. Not the same test tho.
What kind of test are you looking for? I have personally had hold of a slide barehanded, when the gun discharged, though it was unintentional. I got a little burn on my palm from the ejection port and a nice 1/8th" gouge in my hand where the post front sight hit it, but nowhere near the catastrophic damage that some seem to think will happen. Although, there was some slide movement, the gun did not cycle. By the way, the gun was a .45ACP 1911 Commander sized gun. This experience has confirmed to me that I can bind up a gun in a fight. As long as the first round doesn't hit me, it turns his gun into a club and I still have hold of it. And yes, I've had training to do so.Thanks. Still wondering if make/model/caliber makes a difference but clearly has some application as well. Now we just have to wait for the "disarm the attacker by taking his gun" comments to show up... ;-)
My comments seem to have aggravated you but in fact we're on the same page. Hence the comment you didn't quote. I've taken the issues into consideration and I'm good with the weapon as it stands, while hoping to see some improvements as well.The point was that it's an old known issue and remember, the "upgrade" was voluntary. There are others that have shown the issue to continue after the "upgrades", which is where the frame flex idea came from. Again, this is not new.
What kind of test are you looking for? I have personally had hold of a slide barehanded, when the gun discharged, though it was unintentional. I got a little burn on my palm from the ejection port and a nice 1/8th" gouge in my hand where the post front sight hit it, but nowhere near the catastrophic damage that some seem to think will happen. Although, there was some slide movement, the gun did not cycle. By the way, the gun was a .45ACP 1911 Commander sized gun. This experience has confirmed to me that I can bind up a gun in a fight. As long as the first round doesn't hit me, it turns his gun into a club and I still have hold of it. And yes, I've had training to do so.
(By William Aprill at Rangermaster in TN, when Tom Givens still owned it, it you want specifics.)
You carry SIG's, good for you. I don't care. I was saying, P320 issues and not something new and should be given some consideration rather than dismissed.
Ok, cool. It just seemed that you were being dismissive of some of the others comments or examples/demonstrations.My comments seem to have aggravated you but in fact we're on the same page. Hence the comment you didn't quote. I've taken the issues into consideration and I'm good with the weapon as it stands, while hoping to see some improvements as well.
Good idea. I specifically don't keep any striker guns that utilize a loaded spring design for vehicle guns. Glocks, as much as I don't care for them, are preferred for this role in my household. My thinking is a car accident that resulted in a firearm discharge that hurt someone would be a mess that's completely avoidable. That P250 would suffice in your situation if you're limited to only existing handguns you mentioned in this thread. Hammer guns still do some things better.I alternate between a SC P250 with the newer grip for carry (P320 Sub style) and the house gun is a C P320 with extended mags. I sometimes carry the Compact as a vehicle gun as well. I may alter how that is stored to make sure it doesn't move around. Other than that, I like the newer trigger for fast follow up shots much better and won't be concerned about it in my hand.