Is it a reliigon or a politcial theory? And if it is a religion that dictates we adhere or die how do we coexist?
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Terrorist attack in London
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Is it a reliigon or a politcial theory? And if it is a religion that dictates we adhere or die how do we coexist?
georgel
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Actually, one scholar described it as a religion with a political strategy as a way to facilitate it's goals. This includes war, so there is a military component as well. We are accustomed to thinking of the separation of church and state. They see no such distinction.
There is no co-existence in their view. Yes, they must be done away with, but just as their attack on our society is multi-faceted, our counter must be multi-faceted as well. Religious, political and military.
The under-pinning is religion. Their religion will out itself for it's evil. Were we strong in our beliefs as a nation there would have been no room for them. But, we have been weak. It's our own moral and spiritual decay that left the door open.
In medicine, the western philosophy is reductionist. Drill down to the microscopic level and attack the offending cells by external means. In eastern philosophy, it is holistic, you make the body strong and it takes care of itself, repulsing the offending cells.
There is no co-existence in their view. Yes, they must be done away with, but just as their attack on our society is multi-faceted, our counter must be multi-faceted as well. Religious, political and military.
The under-pinning is religion. Their religion will out itself for it's evil. Were we strong in our beliefs as a nation there would have been no room for them. But, we have been weak. It's our own moral and spiritual decay that left the door open.
In medicine, the western philosophy is reductionist. Drill down to the microscopic level and attack the offending cells by external means. In eastern philosophy, it is holistic, you make the body strong and it takes care of itself, repulsing the offending cells.
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You change their creed.
I admit that I don't know how to make it happen, but as Arab's go they have far more to lose than most and so can be pressured to change. Might have to go to war with them, might have to freeze their bank accounts, I honestly don't know.The same House of Saud that's directly responsible for the rise and spread of Wahhabism?
They're not the solution to ANYTHING.
Persuading believers to change what they hold to be the literal words of God is highly unlikely; killing them all would probably be easier.
You'd think, but if you look at the history of any system of belief you'll see that it changes over time, the trick is to have a long timeframe and to inject things like materialism.
<sarcasm> How's that worked out in the last 1,400 years? </sarcasm>
The only times Islamic beliefs have been moderated have been when iron-fisted rulers such as the Mongols have forced change. Even then, the changes vanished when the overwhelming force of the rulers ceased.
The core belief that the Koran consists of the literal words of God is an insurmountable malignancy that defies any possibility of moderation.
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Change comes from within, being repressed does not cause a moderation of beliefs, what I'm talking about is corruption and I believe that you can see it in American Muslims. There are about 3.5 million Muslims in the US, and if even a sizeable minority of them believed the twisted version of their faith pushed by IS or other Islamic terrorists then we would have been enjoying a great deal more terrorism right here at home than we have. Why do second and third generation Muslims in America have more moderate beliefs than IS?
T
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We toy with the idea of making them more moderate Muslims at our own peril.
Materialism? On the contrary, look at places like the UAE and in Saudi where they build indoor snow ski parks. Oil has given them material wealth like no other. It's making things worse, not better.
Pretty sure that is what they say about anyone not Muslim..
And this is why I advocate for the remove of the inciters. Why are we so willing to jump all over some redneck racist and call his speech a hate crime but turning a blind eye to a cleric who preaches that non-muslims need to be killed? The Brits should be charging the imam of the mosque that the terrorists attended as an accessory since it is already public knowledge that he preaches violence toward others
drypowder
Les Deplorables
Because we are so focused on one of the invading groups (and a smaller one at that, at least in the US), that we forget about the cancer within that enables the invasion.
Meckmeister
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Good conclusion. Fox has had an ex-CIA James Mitchell on the air last couple weeks who waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Even a couple years after the 'boarding, KSM admitted that the western culture is so accomodating to threats that terrorists can settle in and later invade that country with little resistance, making it possible for the caliphate to thereby conquer the West.
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drypowder
Les Deplorables
When a culture is self-flagellating like white western European and white liberal American culture, we are signalling to other ethnicities: "Come step on our necks and rape our women." To me, it makes perfect sense that Muslims are wildly disproportionately raping European females, or that blacks and Hispanics are wildly disproportionately raping white American females.
When we give them the invitation, can you blame other cultures for saying "OK"? It is animal (and therefore, human) nature to prey on the weak, and the Marxists have made us weak. Even if we could subdue Islam in our weakened state (we cannot), we haven't solved the core problem, and we will succumb to other cultures who are seeing the same weakness that Muslims see.
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And here we find the problem. You believe that Islam is a religion of peace. Have you read the Quran? That isn't at all what it says, not even remotely. The terrorists are the ones actually practicing what Islam's core beliefs and values dictate.
It is a political and military and religious system designed to subjugate everyone. The "peace" of Islam comes when _everyone_ has converted or submitted to the political sovereignty of Islam and the rule of Sharia.
A Muslim that doesn't believe that is not actually a Muslim, any more than someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe in the bodily death and resurrection of Christ is a Christian (which is to say, not at all).
While you are correct that most of Islam can be corrupted (just as most of the church has been), that will not change or "reform" Islam itself, which will still be there.
What is necessary is to expose the belief system of Islam for what it really is for everyone to see (no PC pretending, no deception, just the doctrine straight from the horses mouth). Then anyone who doesn't renounce it completely is an enemy of the rest of mankind, _by their own scriptures_, and must be dealt with accordingly. They literally declared war on everyone else already, 1400 years ago. Anyone who preaches or otherwise promotes the Quran as truth rather than a historical text, from that point on, can and should be treated as a criminal and traitor, because they are.
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Daleo8803
Move along, move along
If you are a non Muslim their book gives only 3 ways in witch to deal with you. Convert you, enslave you, or kill you. That's it. There no other ways to deal with non believers. There are passages that even say specifically that they can not be friends or trade with Christians or Jews. Sorry but there is only one way to deal with them. Force.
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Meckmeister
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While I basically agree with you, the Quran and the Bible have verses that were written about two thousand years ago, at a time when Jews were telling Phillistines that Mohammed was a crazy man for trying to convert polytheists to believe in one god. True that Mohammed was a warrior and he sought reprisals on the Jews as his enemy and there were reprisals against his followers.
The translations of the books are what they are. The danger is imams like the one in London who interpret those verses literally and with hate toward Christians and Jews. The world is consumed now in identity politics, and there can be no civil discussion about your/my/their opposing views. It has permeated the school system, so it's probably too late to have a normal discussion it seems. Sad times.
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Lots of great points guys, thanks for taking the time to respond. Please help me focus in on one.
I have often thought that you can get away with calling just about anything a religion in the US, and have been waiting for big corporations to form a religion for the worship of money and then arguing that the government can't tax their new god (I'm joking). So how do we expose and eliminate Islam from the US without violating our constitution?
As a simple first step we stop immigration from any part f the world that doesn't have a strong government that believes in religious freedom. Is it American to say to people living in such circumstances that they are unwelcome?
As a simple second step, maybe we eliminate their tax-free status. What's the basis for that?
I have often thought that you can get away with calling just about anything a religion in the US, and have been waiting for big corporations to form a religion for the worship of money and then arguing that the government can't tax their new god (I'm joking). So how do we expose and eliminate Islam from the US without violating our constitution?
As a simple first step we stop immigration from any part f the world that doesn't have a strong government that believes in religious freedom. Is it American to say to people living in such circumstances that they are unwelcome?
As a simple second step, maybe we eliminate their tax-free status. What's the basis for that?
drypowder
Les Deplorables
Why is that America's problem? Do you take homeless people into your home? Why should America take in anyone unless it is in the interests of the American citizenry?
How is that even close to being true?
The timeline makes no sense. Mohammed lived from 570 - 632 AD. The Koran was "written" after 610 AD. The last verses in the Bible were written at the latest around 100 AD, probably much earlier. Philistines were essentially gone by 400 BC.
Why would the Jews think he was crazy when they are also monotheistic? (They were either the first or second "people" to be monotheistic, long before Islam was ever conceived, somewhere between 1500 - 1200 BC.) What power did Jews have in the 600s AD? They were dispersed almost completely by then and surviving under the rule of other countries. Israel didn't exist. How did Mohammed see them as an enemy? He fought against other "Arabs" to establish his caliphate.
I would love to read where you got this idea. It seems full of fallacy.
(For the record, it is known that Mohammed stole from the Old Testament and the New Testament when he was teaching. He just said they had become corrupt and were not the final voice of God. His teachings, which were what became the Quran, were the final truth from God. Any similarities are due to his plagiarism.)
America is great in no small part because we have historically accepted folks looking for a better life. This has always presumed that those folks want the kind of better life that we can offer and not that they can come here and take us over. Is the time for this past?
Meckmeister
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On the timelines, that's why I said "about" 2K years ago for the context. As far as the info on Mohammed, I worked in the ME for over six years, had heated discussions with those people, and I have looked at some documentation on where Islam got its beginnings. So as not to belabor the point here, I'll PM you some research.
I think the key to that bolded question is, what is their intent after they get here?
Some folks came to this country originally to escape religious persecution in their own country; to have religious freedom. A similar occurrence today would be , say, Christians, or Sikhs or adherents of other religions coming here to escape persecution by Muslims. No issues there.
Where we have some difficulty is, say, a Shia coming to the US to escape Sunni persecution, but then working for the adoption of Sharia law HERE, and NOT "coexisting." I don't think it is un-American to call that attitude/outcome unwelcome. If they aren't going to melt into the melting pot, then they would be immigrating under false pretenses.
But the context is still wrong as they are over 500 years apart and have no intersection. It is false.
I look forward to reading your information.
The first paragraph is, shall we say, alternative facts, as has already been pointed out.
Your second paragraph completely misses the point. If they don't believe what the Quran plainly says, they aren't Muslims. And you have to expect that some of those that do believe it will act on it (and the others support those that do act - I can find plenty of reputable survey data that is terrifyingly clear just how many western (but obviously not westernized) muslims agree with the many horrific practices of Islam, up to and including terrorism.
The point is that Islam itself _is_ radical, not that there are some outlier bad apples we need to find and stop.
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The danger is the core belief that the Koran cannot be interpreted and must be taken at face value because it contains the literal words of God.
When "moderate" Muslims argue against the plain words and meaning of verses in the Koran, they are guilty of denying the very foundation of Islam - submission to the actual words of God. Denying a fundamental aspect of Islam is apostasy, for which the Koran demands the punishment of death.
People in non-Muslim countries can laugh at the primitive religion that prescribes killing people for disagreeing with its holy book. People in Muslim-majority countries subject to Sharia law don't laugh -and keep their mouths shut- because people in those countries are really put to death for apostasy and blasphemy against Islam.
Meckmeister
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JimP42 wrote:
"Your second paragraph completely misses the point. If they don't believe what the Quran plainly says, they aren't Muslims. And you have to expect that some of those that do believe it will act on it (and the others support those that do act - I can find plenty of reputable survey data that is terrifyingly clear just how many western (but obviously not") muslims agree with the many horrific practices of Islam, up to and including terrorism."
Enjoy how you jumped to your conclusion. First, I consider myself a Christain. But some of the scriptures I read from day to day are well, plain as mud to me, and I consider myself 'educated'. I need a minister to explain those verses for the better part of an hour ONCE a week.
For Muslims to understand literally every verse in their holy book, I would be a little suspicious, considering that for many in their flock, it is the only book that they are literate enough to read in their lives. Thereby they need imams to preach to them FIVE times a day to remind them what they aren't sure about. To become Muslims as a child they memorize the Quran cover to cover. To me, rote memory is not teaching. Those doing the translations are the critical ones in all religions today.
"Your second paragraph completely misses the point. If they don't believe what the Quran plainly says, they aren't Muslims. And you have to expect that some of those that do believe it will act on it (and the others support those that do act - I can find plenty of reputable survey data that is terrifyingly clear just how many western (but obviously not") muslims agree with the many horrific practices of Islam, up to and including terrorism."
Enjoy how you jumped to your conclusion. First, I consider myself a Christain. But some of the scriptures I read from day to day are well, plain as mud to me, and I consider myself 'educated'. I need a minister to explain those verses for the better part of an hour ONCE a week.
For Muslims to understand literally every verse in their holy book, I would be a little suspicious, considering that for many in their flock, it is the only book that they are literate enough to read in their lives. Thereby they need imams to preach to them FIVE times a day to remind them what they aren't sure about. To become Muslims as a child they memorize the Quran cover to cover. To me, rote memory is not teaching. Those doing the translations are the critical ones in all religions today.
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Chdamn
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I saw where an ISIS leader released a statement saying "Soon the London Bridges will be falling down, falling down, falling down".
Straw man argument. We aren't talking about the Bible or how you do or do not understand it, knowing "every verse" (or sura in this case), or about teaching frequency, or literacy.
They don't have to understand every verse. It only takes believing and acting on a few verses to do a lot of damage. What we can say for sure though is that a more complete understanding of the Quran does not encourage moderation. The more and better you know it, the clearer the call to make everyone in the world submit becomes.
The stereotype is that terrorists are poor ignorant illiterate dupes and while that is often true, if you look at the backgrounds of recent western jihadis you will find many very intelligent and well educated people as well.
And what conclusion exactly did I jump to? I would be happy to fill in any missing steps for you.
Carry a rifle in your truck and a full size pistol on your person.
If they start stabbing little girls, kill every last one of them.
If they start stabbing little girls, kill every last one of them.
You are absolutely correct that for nearly two centuries, America generally accepted people "like us" looking for "our kind" of better life. The last half century has been a massive experiment in social engineering to advance the theories of diversity.
From independence until the end of the Civil War, immigration was essentially uncontrolled. However, the people who came to America during that period were essentially all from Western Europe, which is to say that they were like the people who were already here. The Spanish and Portuguese came to the Americas in large numbers, but overwhelmingly went to Central and South America to live with like people rather coming to the United States.
One of the first major federal immigration laws was the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 which was certainly not "accepting" of people who were substantially different from those who already lived in America.
Immigration during the years from the end of the Civil War until the end of World War I was unsettling. The new immigrants were Italians and Greeks, Poles and Slavs, Catholics and Jews - in short, they were not like the "us" living in America at the time. The government fixed that problem with the Immigration Act of 1924. That law limited immigration based on how many people from a particular country already lived in America, but Africans were highly restricted and Arabs and Asians were simply banned.
Finally we have the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which effectively turned the previous immigration mix on its head. The immigrants largely became anybody who did not look like "us."
Here is a great set of charts of immigration to America by decade and country of origin.
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The truth is there is no help for Europe.
Meckmeister
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JimP42, I'm afraid you/me/others have hijacked this thread into a political and religious morph on an "Off Topics" thread. This really needs to be on the Politics forum. And my pappy told me never to talk politics and religion to people. A lesson I'm still learning. haha.
georgel
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A scholar on Islam said that "moderate" muslims and radical muslims actually believe in the same thing, only the time line is different. "Moderate" muslims believe that there will eventually be only one "true" religion and therefore peace at some future time. They see the holy wars and jihad as something yet to come and that is when they will take up the fight. Much like Christians see the tribulation as some distant future event. Radical muslims see their time as now and they want it now. So, even moderate muslims are radical muslims in laying in wait and don't even realize it.
